Progression... Something Else?

it doesn't really need to go that deep, zone lockouts and extra gear requirements would be good enough.... the same items would obv have to be dropped no matter who kills the mob - but just make it impossible for certain players to equip the defiant gear (until the proper expansion). kronos wouldn't change, it would just be impossible to afford with in game currency until you were caught up with everyone else on w/e server who is already in TDS. oh and the lvl 65 PoP guilds competing with a single 85 char? with this logic, progression guilds wouldn't work. progression guilds have gotten past PoP b4, so, yeah.... it's a very minor problem.

if a check was run for each piece of gear and each zone, that would be good enough. yeah it'd be annoying to code, but it's possible and it doesn't need to be perfect. what you can buy from npc's doesn't really have to change. what does it matter that you can buy lvl 80 spells from an npc if you can't reach lvl 80 anyway b/c of w/e guild you're in?

Well. Its kind of a nice idea. I like that we are throwing the whole eq game into an outside of the box thinking discussion. I would take it one step further. In my world I imagine Sony making eq kinda open source and providing coding/server support for the modding community. Like say I or my guild wants to buy a server and run it a certain way... I invest x amount of dollars and then I charge people to play on my server. This is happening to a certain extent already, but I think if sony wanted too they could throw it into some kind of shareholder type agreement where the community that wants a pop server throws in 50/50 with Sony. like a franchise. like I buy the rights to the game type of thing. Sony supports the "shareholder" and provides a server and someone to recode the server.

Let me see if I understand what you are saying...

1. You propose to set up a series of "Special Ruleset Guilds" (SRG). Where each guild is permanently locked at some point in progression. In your example: the first SRG would be locked into classic, the second SRG locked into Kunark (and I would assume what came before), etc. As more expansions are released more SRG's would be created (one for each new expansion).

2. A new character would be placed into the first SRG. This new character would not be allowed to join the Kunark SRG until that character was involved in killing all the raid targets in classic. Once they have gotten into the Kunark SRG, they would not be allowed to join the Velious SRG until they kill all the Kunark raid targets. Progression would be individually accomplished by killing raid targets and guild hopping from one SRG to the next in line. The SRG's themselves would NOT progress.

3. Only new characters can join the first SRG, and for all subsequent SRG's you basically have to be in the SRG that feeds it. That is to say, only a new character can get into the classic SRG. Only characters in the classic SRG can get into the Kunark SRG. Only Kunark SRG members can get into the Velious SRG. etc.

4. At any point in time from first spawn onward. Anyone in an SRG guild can deguild and join a standard guild. This would almost have to be a one way trip.

If I am correct, I have a few thoughts.

My #2 above is based on your "... until they're part of a group that takes down the raid targets..." in the original post. Basically, these progression SRG's are raider only. A single grouper cannot progress through the SRG's without raiding. In the lower SRG's that would essentially be a part time job, but starting around PoP, it becomes full time. This may come as a shock to you, but there are a few people (even on the progression servers) that don't want to have anything to do with raiding. This requirement will probably have to be modified to just being a member when the raid targets are taken down, but that would bring some baggage with it also.

Which brings up the raid targets themselves. All of them prior to Time are open-world events. There are a few after PoP that are also open-world. You are sharing your server with people that can and quite often do take down these targets solo. Some of them are pretty much perma-camped even in this day and age. The lower SRG guilds are going to find themselves racing for some of their targets, not against other guilds but against individuals. Additionally, you will never, ever, ever see a Warder in Sleeper's Tomb again, as they have all been replaced with Ancients. It also would be unlikely that anyone in an SRG would see a Server First for years, if ever.

One of your "Pro's was "no more need for progression servers!" That might turn into being a con. What I am saying is that if you somehow talk SOE into this, you will probably never see another progression server. If SOE does actually implement this idea, they are very unlikely to ever create another progression server, even if the Progression Guilds do not satisfy anyone.

yeah you got it. I would think that group content only players were the minority when it comes to progression, right? what else is there to do endgame if you're not raiding? the next expansions don't even unlock until the raid targets are taken out as it is. I don't think it's necessarily a full time job either - that's for ppl who grind the same raids over and over looking for specific gear. you wouldn't need to do that, just take each target out once each, which is what happens just 1 day after a new expansion is unlocked in the progression servers we have now.

I think a whole lot of those group content only ppl would actually love to raid every once in a while but the problem is that all the raiding guilds say, "mandatory attendance 3 nights a week" or something like that. you really have to commit, they'll kick you out if you aren't raiding with them and not everyone has all that time on their hands....

the best thing about these progression guilds is that you can always join whoever's raiding what, whenever you want. you're both in the same guild at the same level now, so who's going to say, "no - that guy's never been with us b4, we're not raiding with him!" when they'd be raiding with new ppl in new guilds all the time. b/c in these guilds the faster ppl won't ONLY be passing you out, they'll also be catching up to you (the ones who started later than you). it'd really be great for everyone who wants to go their own pace.

also, it really isn't that much of a problem as you'd think competing for mobs with solo higher level players. it happened occasionally in the progression guilds that I've been a part of, but everyone always killed their targets in a reasonable amount of time. it was never like, "AAAARGH, I'VE BEEN TRYING TO KILL NAGGY FOR WEEKS BUT EVERY TIME HE SPAWNS SOME LEVEL 100 JERK GETS HIM FIRST!"

I think these progression guilds would be at the very least big enough to kill all existing player made progression guilds. and think about all the ppl who've heard of the progression guilds on this forum and joined vs how many ppl actually play everquest... if player made prog guilds can spread through simple word of mouth and start with 100 characters in their first month of existence, think about how enormous these hypothetical guilds would be if everyone who made a new character was just put in these guilds until they left them? I really don't think 1 guild would be enough for the classic prog guild if this were to happen.

I suppose it would be a little bit of a shame to never get another progression server. it is nice for everyone on the whole server to be on the same page... I think this would be a fair tradeoff though and that it would revitalize interest in this game like the prog servers did.

Just about everyone overestimates the popularity of what they like and underestimates the popularity of other things. Raiders overestimate the popularity of raiding and underestimate the popularity of grouping. Groupers overestimate the popularity of grouping and underestimate the popularity of raiding. PvPers overestimate the popularity of PvP and underestimate the popularity of PvE. PvEers overestimate the popularity of PvE and underestimate the popularity of PvP. Classic/Progression enthusiasts overestimate the popularity of Progression/Classic servers and underestimate the popularity of standard ruleset servers. Standard ruleset enthusiasts overestimate the popularity of standard ruleset play and underestimate the popularity of progression/classic ruleset play.

The reason for this is quite simple. "Birds of a feather, flock together" - Robert Half. "Creatures flock together with their kind, doves with doves, cranes with cranes and so on." - Democritus.

I as a grouper do not spend much time with raiders. Most of my time is spent with groupers. I as a PvE player spend most of my time with other PvE players. I as a standard ruleset enthusiast spend most of my time (all, actually) on a standard ruleset server. Basically, I play with people that, for the most part, enjoy the same things I enjoy.

To put it another way, if your idea was implemented, I am certain that the Progression Guilds will not be as popular as you believe they will (and probably more popular than I think they will).I know for a fact that if I created an alt under this system, the absolute first thing I would do when the alt first spawned would be to type '/remove'.

You vastly underestimate the amount of organization it takes for guilds to progress through all of it. Your idea would be fine for vox and naggy, but you wouldn't have to go too far into the EQ expansion list to run into a brick wall.

Take an expansion like Gates of Discord, for instance. We can still count on one hand the number of guilds that have ever beaten it in era. Since raids are capped at 54, having a ton of bodies in this hypothetical guild isn't going to help. You need the right size, not too large so that everyone is getting geared. 300 people would be a huge detriment, not an advantage. You need some kind of dkp or loot council system, so the gear is going where it needs to, to the players who show up and contribute the most. You need skilled players that know how to play their class on raids, not just 54 random people that happen to show up. You need stability and organization, raid leaders who know what they are doing, class teams that know how to work together. Your hypothetical guild setup would have none of this, and so progression would stop dead at PoP or Gates if not before.

But, you knew that all along, and this is yet another backdoor attempt to get a perma classic server. Either that or you never raided the hard expansions in era and have no idea what it takes.

You would probably be wrong, especially early on in the expansions. There were a ton of group only players. There were also a ton of casual raid guilds only hitting content 2-3 expansions back and never touching current endgame content (on Fippy, 5 or 6 out of 10 raiding guilds fell into this category during Luclin-PoP.) Neither would be options on your server.

I think you overestimate the amount of skill it takes to be a competent player. how many ppl get kicked out of their guilds simply b/c they aren't good enough? we see groups of random ppl in other mmo's take care of everything, it's commonplace now.

also, GoD was originally tuned to 5 levels above what they meant to tune it for and fixed months after release (weeks?). the content is no longer hard on any of the existing servers for lvl 65 toons, at least no harder than OoW is for lvl 70 toons. I'm sure given a guild that hundreds of ppl are in, a simple, "hey who wants to join me for X?" in guild chat will get you a group good enough to do it whether X is naggy or plane of water.

Did you raid Tacvi on Fippy or Vulak while it was current?

This guy. has. no. clue.

EQ isn't rocket surgery, but you can't just make an LFR tool and suddenly everybody wins.

I'm uncertain of whether or not it's legal on this forum to reply to this, pls don't ban me though. it's been left up for a week so I assume it's okay.

other mmo's with lfr tools aren't that much easier than eq... rift for example (during raids). most mmo's require that you keep track of lots of cooldowns and/or maneuver around actually, and most of them have lfr tools.

besides, these aren't ENTIRELY random ppl you're grouped up with. I hate so much having to explain this.... ugh, here goes: given how these progression guilds would work, someone who wants to raid GoD MUST have already been part of groups that have taken out every raid target pre-GoD. given that level of experience, the person is much more likely good enough for the challenge than you're giving them credit for. the average person who's gotten to GoD is more than sufficiently prepared for GoD and should only really fail if they aren't caught up with their AA's. this isn't some random joe who's never raided b4.

the thing with GoD is just that it left non-raiders with nothing to do and is probably the most hardcore expansion b/c of this. the way progression works though, unlocking the next expansion after raid targets are killed, I don't see why non-raiders would even want to play. the current non-raiders who would like to raid though if only it wasn't such a commitment could do so if these guilds were implemented - everyone could go at their own pace and still be part of a raiding guild.

Gold

It has become obvious that these progression servers begin a slow death around ldon or a few expansions after that.

Eq has such a small team. The level of complexity here makes my head hurt for them.