Armor progression (expansion view)

Well yes, ancient raid gear has superiority over melee gear.

TDS Raid, probably TDS Cultural Raid - Cleave IX - 45
CotF T2 Raid, possibly TDS Cultural Raid - Cleave IX - 40
CotF T1 Raid - Cleave IX - 37
RoF T4 Raid - Cleave IX - 35
RoF T2-T3, Cultural Raid - Cleave IX - 32
RoF T1 Raid, VoA T4 Raid - Cleave IX - 30
VoA T3 Raid - Cleave IX - 27
VoA T2, Cultural Raid, HoT T4 Raid - Cleave IX - 25
VoA T1 Raid, HoT T3, Cultural Raid - Cleave IX - 22
HoT T2 Raid - Cleave IX - 20
HoT T1 Raid, UF T8 Raid - Cleave IX - 15
UF T7, Cultural Raid - Cleave IX - 10
UF T6 Raid - Cleave IX - 5
SoD T4-4.5 Raid - Cleave IX
SoD T2-3 Raid, Monster Mission Raids, SoF T3-4 Raid - Cleave VIII

TDS T3 Group - Cleave VII - 34

Stop cherry picking your data. Either use all of the expansions or only level increase expansions. As it stands your data is meaningless because you have picked the data that fits what you want.

Are you seriously saying that using expansions which have complete armor sets is "cherry picking," but only level increase expansions is not?

Since the premise is the progressive nature of the full armor sets, the data used is directly relevant. If you have something to add, please, feel free to do so. If your comments are merely to dismiss and complain, there are plenty of other threads to choose from.

All expansions that you have skipped have complete armor sets.

They most certainly do not. The only expansions skipped (yet noted) with any armor set were Gates and Prophecy. Gates only had a raid set while Prophecy only had group sets.

Feel free to prove me wrong.
Original: No difference between raidable/groupable armor (yes that means fear/hate)
Kunark: One single set through the expansion, only one "raid" piece off Trak.
Velious: No difference between raidable/groupable armor
Luclin: No expansion-wide sets.
PoP: Counted and noted as the first appearance of full raid sets and group sets
LoY: No armor sets
LDoN: No armor sets
GoD: Noted above
OoW: Counted
DoN: No armor sets
DoDH: No armor sets
PoR: Noted above
TSS: Counted
TBS: Counted
SoF: Counted
SoD: Counted
UF: Counted
HoT: Counted
VoA: Counted
RoF: Counted
CoTF: Counted
TDS: Counted


Now.. go right ahead. Add something constructive with your next post please or refrain from replies.

I'm sorry that you're incorrect, there was most definitely a difference between what you could get from raids in the original EQ, Kunark, and Velious. Luclin, LDoN, DoN, and DoDh all most definitely did have armor sets in them, but as was the standard for the first 7 years of the game the armor pieces did not have a set naming pattern. You are excluding upgrades which would destroy your entire argument. There most definitely were Group gear upgrades in GoD and Raid gear upgrades in PoR; why do you choose to pretend there were not? Just because you might not have a set of 8 pieces with the same basic name in an expansion doesn't mean that there is not an armor set in that expansion.

TSS and TBS both greatly increased group armor stats and HME, because the Devs were really starting to see an issue with creating group content for both groupers and raiders as well as the increasingly difficult issue of transitioning from grouper to raider due to lack of gear. Then SoF completely overhauled it to the current group gear being around 1.5-2 expansions behind the current end raid gear (excluding the new chase item system).

To be perfectly honest, you really cannot really compare group armor progression pre-SoF to group armor progression in SoF and later expansions. From SoF onward group armor progression is directly tied to raid armor progression. Prior to SoF the group armor was always considerably worse than raid armor; in original EQ raid gear was about 1.5x as good; Kunark, Velious, and Luclin it was about 1.75x as good; PoP, LoY, and LDoN it was about 2x as good; GoD it was about 2.5x as good; OoW it was about 3x as good; and from there it kept increasing but more slowly until the next level expansion TSS. With TSS they boosted group a lot and introduced Defiant armor drops in the older expansions; TSS to TBS had minor increases for groupers. BTW, your TBS numbers for group armor are totally wrong; TBS group armor like around 280 hp not anywhere near 439; you're looking at raid armor there. SoF is where you have the huge jump in group gear.

It's really pointless to go that far back because all you're going to find out is that things used to be different.

Until Omens, pure randomness. Yellow Fang Earring from Festersore has 30ac, I apologize to a handful of twinks if it gets nerfed next patch. Trying to find any pattern will fail.

Omens Anguish Raid Ear AC: 30, 32, 33, 35, 42
Omens Best Group: 22 Bauble of Premonitions, a "6 man raid" since MPG Trials drop Slot 8 gear

Back to pure randomness especially on the group side, Magic Claw Earring has 9ac, is req70 and at 225 Crystals is one of the more expensive items, you're welcome next progression server if this gets fixed. Trying to find any pattern will fail but have to give a shout out to the Furious Jailor even if his ear is "only" 20ac.

TSS FC/AG Raid Ear AC: 43-48 - raid seems to be morphing into modern standards
TSS FC/AG Group Ear AC: 13, 16, 17, 19, 21, 31 Pal Class item for expansion wrecks the curve

TBS Solteris Raid Ear AC: 42, 48, 51, 52, 52, 54, 58 - because Merloc
TBS Group Ear AC: 11, 16, 18, 18 - this was called "Anguish" gear because HP were similar, see AC above

SoF Crystallos Raid Ear AC: 55-65 - back on track with 85% for lowest
SoF Crystallos Group Ear AC: 25-30 - this is from the "why even raid anymore" 500ish HP gear

SoD Tower Raid Ear AC: 64-75 - still 85% for lowest
SoD T5 Group Ear AC: 33-40 - the 700ish gear finally catching up to Anguish AC

Then you have modern itemization and it's really simple, top group gear is ~75% of top raid gear and there are small % gaps between the classes. Unlike previously where different slots and different stats have radically different gaps you have a massive amount of standardization for better and for worse.

UF Raid: 87-92, UF Group: 63-71 - coincidentally group gear is close to SoD Tower
HoT Raid: 95-100, HoT Group: 70-80 - group falls clearly short of previous expansion raid gear
VoA Raid: 103-113, VoA Group: 79-89 - it's not a 2 expansion old raid standard, it's ~75% of current
RoF Raid: 129-137, RoF Group: 94-104 - still not based on HoT raid gear
CotF Raid: 146-155, CotF Group: 107-118 - slight lead on VoA raid gear is a coincidence
TDS Raid: 166-175, TDS Group: 124-133 - slightly behind RoF raid gear is a coincidence

If this were true, group gear progression would have ended with bronze armor and weapons.

You should be happy that SOE does not subscribe to the idea that the even the newest group gear should not be superior in any way to the oldest raid gear. If they had, the last single grouper would have left the game no later than LoY and there would have only been one raid guild left by PoR (with 30 people in it). There would not have been a TSS expansion because SOE would have pulled the plug on the last server by then.

As for the gap...
I, as a single grouper, don't give a rat's *** what the gap is as long I the group game is tuned for my gear and (if I chose) I can transition into raiding.

word..

i was being sarcastic btw. That is the typical respond. There really is no point in arguing about the differences in raid gear and group gear.

and you are right so long as the group gear is good enough to to group content. you should be happy.. however when in raid gear the group game is laughable. The larger the game the more laughable the content is.

I also think your thought "and (if i chose) i can transition into raiding" is kinda subjective to what class you are. IDK if a group geared tank will be much good jumping into current raid content =( Though going to a few farm events and you be all caught up. Then if you go back to the group game you probably wont get upgrades for many expansions. And again depending on the class some things about raid gear are never upgradable via group gear.