I brought all that into it and ruined it, bummer. IDotPeople "Yes we can now kite more fluidly, now we can actually have a niche again. Why is that so terrible to you, that we can do something better than paladins? " Envy? I can care less about your kiting. Glad you can do it better now to be honest. Also like how you state " I don't personally see any agro disparity on raids, was with 3 different pallies on the raid, not a one was having issues keeping agro over dps while self healing." Sounds slanted to me, but ok. If I'm tanking err.... someone should be healing me and I should be focused on that agro thing so the DPS don't get eaten?? Well grats now you have easily 2 of 3 better than Paladin....dps and agro...maybe throw in some abilities / clicks and claim tanking multiple mobs? But you keep prodding here so what's your point? Don't acknowledge refresh timers on abilities.....but that's too bad.
Slanted is the whole problem, on both sides. We try to present cases very strong for our respective classes, but often to make our case stronger, we leave details out to make things sound more extreme. By the way, how is it slanted to say I saw paladins able to do their jobs and then some just fine in raids? Since you wanted to bring multiple agro on mobs up by the way, I highly recommend viewing the IRC chat with Elidroth about that, particularly the 16:54 mark and 16:56 mark. By the way, I'm not aiming for nerfs on either side at all, just saying the cases presented for the most part are, total BS. Is typically just one area focused on, never big picture, in hopes of getting some new edge. My only reason for posting in here is paladins bringing SHD into the picture using shoddy information at best. Quit leaving out information in hopes of getting what you want please.
Back at you ..... Quit leaving out information in hopes of getting what you want please. "Since you wanted to bring multiple agro on mobs up by the way, I highly recommend viewing the IRC chat with Elidroth about that, particularly the 16:54 mark and 16:56 mark." Until its in game don't count on it happening. Been promised things before and didn't happen. Better yet take your agenda and start a new thread this is not the place.
My agenda is to not make up BS comparisons between classes in order to get what you want, the end. I will happily back out when they stop.
I think Alot of this is going to be slanted based on Skill, AND your using an unrealistic comparison. Most paladins and most SK's i know, are not going to raid with a PURE hate set up. IDGAF what our pure hate is doing, I want to know in relationship to an SK under regular operating conditions how does Paladin aggro now stack up. O WELL A PALADIN CASTING 4 HATE SPELLS VS an SK CASTING 3 TERRORS AND CHALLENGE Thats not a real scenario. if your going to napkin math this, Lets see some realistic situations and a comparison.
Really shouldn't let Elidroth off the hook for the hate mods and hate abilities nor the healing ones. Seems like paladins really getting short end of the stick last few expansions especially from where we were once. But what do I know, I'm an old retired paladin I'll go back to my kitchen and see if I can't use this soulfire to get my stove going... Galidin
I'd suggest keeping it constructive guys or the thread will get locked. Quick question - do paladin crushes have any additional effects? Dps, stun, etc?
Why do paladin's agro generating abilities have such a long recast as well as having a cast time when compared to the other two tanks? I've seen sk's tanking multiple mobs and paladins unable to peel a single mob off of them effectively. This use to not be the case. Looks like paladins may need recast reduction, increased agro on stuns and instant cast stuns. The reason I say instant cast stuns is so they don't get interrupted while tanking.
Re-cast is due to the power of Stuns, Crushes only equal them since it was just take the stun, remove the stun and put a DD basically. If stun had its recast lessened to SK levels they would prob remove one of the 2 lines completely so you'd drop to only having 1.
With how often Stun immunity has been used in recent expansions it seems like Stun has become more of a pure hate spell rather than being used to help mitigate damage like it was once used to do. I do understand that keeping a mob stun locked would be (and has been previously) ridiculous. Looks like a possible solution would be to halve the stun duration and then halve the recast would solve single target agro issues as well as keep the same stun duration over the same amount of time. This along with adjustments to cast time to say instant would allow stuns to be reliably used for agro as well as for kiting. (Remember devs have stated they want to not force guilds to have specific classes to be able to complete a raid) Current raids that involve kiting: Neriak 2, WK 2, DH 2, possibly bixie 1 & 2 depending upon the guilds strat I've seen both used. As it currently stands most paladins I've come across in raiding guilds are splash, heal, splash, heal, splash, heal....etc. I'd think if you wanted to heal and cure all night you would have just made a cleric yes?
What is so hard to understand exactly that if other tank classes hold aggro better, that gives more room for dps to push even further their dps with those tanks over the paladins? That just means if you get the choice (like you have in a raid environment), you will favor the SK over the Paladin on add mobs, leaving the paladin as a tank when there are no SK available and no more on equal footing for tanking purposes. Also, as Abazzagorath pointed out, you have to mem way more spells for aggro purpose to be on par with SK aggro (without vot, and let's get real, which SK would tank without it? If it's such a great tool it will be kept up which means it has to be taken into account when you balance things). No matter how bad the recourse of Challenge is, you can add it if you want, you will still have less hate from the paladin than from the SK (and add in 1 more spell gem). Adding more spells just for the purpose of aggroing IS reducing the heal ability of the paladin (because you cast aggro spells over healing spells). One class has the choice of healing (for less) and aggroing, the other has the choice of healing (for more) OR aggroing and while healing provides a little more use in a raid environment, what's the point exactly when that class can't perform well its primary role, which is tanking?
Yep some pally's nuke...in between healing, so do clerics, druids and shaman. Pally's are tanks first and foremost not healers if they were healers then what's the point in even pretending to care about ac or agro?
Couple of things that may help: With the recast on Voice of Thule, one SK can keep 3 tanks (or themselves and 2 others) covered. So with an equal number of tanks of each class in raid, everyone's covered. It does require some working together, admittedly. The point around healing vs. aggroing is equally valid for SK (and good that you've raised it) - SK healing is considerably behind paladins and does take attention away from aggro. However, I don't want to sidetrack this any more. Would it be better to remove the stun from one of the paladin stuns, and give them a pure aggro spell with no other effect? i.e. a terror line? And perhaps give SK a couple of stun and a nuke on similar cast times?
Your suggestion is that to be able to perform our role correctly, we have to get a short timer buff from another class? Considerably behind? What kind of magical spells do you think paladins use to heal themselves? Splash as a healing tool for tanking like I read on another thread? The whole point of this discussion isn't to merge the aggro abilities of all classes in one btw, but to make the 3 tank classes function the same on their primary role, this discussion of give me this because of that will lead to nowhere since we could start by receiving something for paladins since sk received something new and it will have no end.
Not class directed but still sure most would find useful more AA that would give additional potion belt and Bandolier slots. I would like to see 2 more made available to each.
To answer in order: - The paladins I raid with don't struggle to keep aggro over full burn DPS. So no, I don't think you need a short term buff from another class (unless many other classes that require short term buffs from another class to perform their role to its fullest extent) to perform your role. - Yes considerably behind - It would be good if a paladin could clarify what spells you use to heal yourselves. As you might notice I don't play a raid paladin. The function of a tank is (IMHO) to keep aggro off the squishies, and mitigate damage. The additional roles - doing good DPS, healing, curing, rezzing, kiting etc are what differentiate the classes.
Fellow Paladins, I really don't like the idea of removing abilities which have already been in game for some time. In this case the paladins AE Agro Beacon of the Righteous. It just rubs individuals the wrong way. In my particular case, it cased me to take a 6 month break from the game and retire my old main, a shadow knight. Summary of change I am new-ish to the class, so bear with me as some of the terminology used I have not heard. The change affected the initial Agro reducing it from 17500 to 12000, reducing the hate generated per tick from 17500 to 6500 per tic, and reducing stun time from 8 sec to 3 sec. These changes look bad but, I guess the real issue I see most having is the hate override value reduced to zero meaning the ability does nothing hate wise if it is resisted. What is happening With this change specifically in current content, mobs hit for a lot causing a high rate of incoming heals which make it hard for the paladin to overcome the hate generated from the heals. I suppose this could also be compared to damage to mobs from area effect type spells. My perspective As far back as I remember, paladins had pretty comparable single targeted hate as compared to the shadow knight. The shadow knight, however, had always been the king of area hatred, hands down. If you compare explosion of hatred and spite to beacon of the righteous, you begin to see the issue resulting in the change. [38184] Explosion of Hatred Classes: SHD/254 Skill: Melee Target: Target AE Range: 200', AE Range: 50' Resist: Magic -1000 Reflectable: No Casting: 0s Hate: 8500 Max Targets: 8 1: Increase Hate by 1 Text: You are filled with unreasoned hate. [38183] Explosion of Spite Classes: SHD/254 Skill: Melee Target: Caster PB AE Range: 50' Resist: Magic -1000 Reflectable: No Casting: 0s Hate: 8500 Max Targets: 8 1: Increase Hate by 1 Text: You are filled with unreasoned hate. [41098/21821] Beacon of the Righteous Target: Caster PB AE Range: 30' Resist: Magic -100, Max Resist Chance: 25% Reflectable: No Casting: 0s Duration: 18s (3 ticks), Dispelable: Yes 1: Increase Hate by 12000 2: Stun for 3s up to level 103 3: Increase Hate by 6500 per tick Text: The beacon of light fuels your rage. Even in the post change, beacon really looks good minus the hate override. The ex-shadow knight in me says where did this come from. Why are paladins all of a sudden producing this AE hate? Why does it seem better than my AA abilities coming from the "king of hate?" Note: I am unsure the the reuse time of beacon. The paladin, my new main class, says I need some kind of AE Agro to tank in content today. In actuality, mobs are hitting for so much using group heals for AE Agro just will not work in today's game. The spells are slow casting and only produce heal hate based off of actual healing if I remember right. A group should not wipe on an add or two just because a paladin is tanking vice a warrior or shadow knight. I should have something to reasonably attract adds to allow for crowd control or the use my defensives. At the same time it should not be as good as the shadow knight or warrior. Compromise/solution What to do with beacon? Well, the developers removed the hate override to make it very inconsistent. It seems in line with alternate abilities to improve existing spells or AAs. Let's have a new AA line to improve the resist mod to make beacon less resistible. This would allow growth over improvement getting the ability back to a better level of use and satisfy the less than shadow knight tools and the somewhat inconsistent part which developers seem to want it to have. What about asking for another ability? Religious groups seem to draw upon the group as a whole to make things happen. Whether it is faith healing, normal religious group volunteering, old cult tactics, it all comes down to taking/using the groups raw power to get results. Let's use this for an ability. Let's take power from the group and provide the paladin with AE hate in a usable form. The power lost from the group could be hit points lost like 10-25% for example. We then after initially getting the hate, could use our group heals to then replenish the lost hit points. Once again, paladins get AE hate, in a form less than the others with a danger factor inserted but also in a class specific way unique to our religious type of roots What are your thoughts? Rykard Paladin of the 71st season Emarr P.S. I am sorry for the long post but, I have been trying to wrap myself around the hate change and how it affects me or specifically will affect me when I get to current content. Also, put a constructive rebuttal in that will gander a consideration.
