Test Update 08/12/2014 - Pet Changes Round 4

"Bsts with slow and the strongest pet heals probably still don't even need a merc healer. "

Hahahaha !! Sure if you have a single mob everytime and don't mind trading a ton of dps to have a pet tank. I will give it to you with max pet aa, healing aa, and a EM 20 ear I could keep my pet up with a wizzy merc going to town on a mob. That however is not how people play the class in the higher end game.

Now even if a group geared beast can do as you propose what is the harm??? That dude ain't killing named that way and so what if he or she can take down a single with a wizzy merc.. Is a player going thru single mobs with say 15k or so sustained dps a exploit to people??

Most of this thread is pure BS... Should beastlords make a 50+ page thread calling for monks to get nerfed because they can smoke a beast in dps with the same weapons , tank better and pull singles at will???????

I can totally see tanks frustration with pets tanking in raids. A very valid concern. But this witch hunt on the group game side of things is rediculous.... Non of the raid tanks that are being very vocal on this subject have to compete with any group player for anything. Why do you care so much???

What Daegun says is true, here are the discs that sk (pal have same exact, with diff name) have. I included vie at the end. Notice how their descriptions are the same. only the highest vie is taken in a round. Both can be on, but bastion of vie is not used while sk/pal are using their discs. This is why with war phalanx + di-1+ bastion of vie, sk/pal are at an undisced warriors level with our 20% vie.

*As a side note insolent influence and grelleth's carapace are on the same timer.

Unholy Guardian Discipline
Description
1: Increase Melee Mitigation by 36%
2: Decrease All Skills Damage Modifier by 60%
3: Decrease Chance to Critical Hit by 10% with All Skills
4: Add effect: Unholy Guardian Effect

Insolent Influence
Description
1: AC_2 (1572)
5: Mitigate Melee Damage by 20%, 420600 total
8: Add Defensive Proc: Insolent Reward rate mod 250

Bonebrood Mantle
Description
3: Trigger Effect: Bonebrood Shattering on Fade
5: Mitigate Melee Damage by 35%, 888500 total

Grelleth's Carapace
Description
1: AC_2 (1643)
5: Mitigate Melee Damage by 20%, 420600 total
8: Add Defensive Proc: Grelleth's Lifedraw rate mod 360

Rallied Bastion of Vie
Description
1: Mitigate Melee Damage by 10%, 37981 total
6: Trigger Effect: Light of Vie on Fade

You do realize that "We don't want mages soling named" actually means "We don't think mages should be able to solo named", right?

I maintain my position that mages should not be able to solo named. It's a poor game mechanic choice to allow it to happen. That's my opinion. Do I honestly think that Aristo gives one hoot about my opinion? Absolutely not. That doesn't mean that I'm not entitled to it for whatever it's worth.

There is a substantial difference between soloing and moloing. I'm not a fan of anyone being able to molo named. I am vehemently opposed to anyone soloing named.

Soloing, not moloing.

Aristo said last Friday:

Allow me to be absolutely clear on this: We are taking this action because we looked at the data and saw a significant problem.

• We did not undertake this action because we like a particular class more than we like a different class.
• We did not undertake this action because we read someone's post, took what they said at face value, and implemented their plan exactly.
• We did not undertake this action because we want players to quit/change mains/buy heroic characters/play some other game.
• We did not undertake this action because we decided we really needed to mess with someone.

We have been looking at this for months. We are trying to bring pets down to a level where it takes effort to keep them alive, but not so much effort that they're not worth the time to do so. This is a tricky balance point. Where we started was not where we will finish. Please stop yelling at each other over what you think our motives are and spend some time helping us get it right.

Aristo, Friday at 12:09 PM

I'm not maxed AAs, maxed level, or max EM, so my opinions probably don't count. But, I don't see many pet classes saying we have a problem with a single white or yellow con. If every pet class could guarantee a single pull, pets could indeed be much weaker than they currently are. The problem becomes when you get 2+ mobs. At my level, if I get a 3rd even con mob, I gate. If people really want to parse the difference between a pet and a group tank, they should be tanking 2 even con mobs and see what the difference is.

I have to wonder, I played some betas where they had pretty intricate test dummies, is there some reason they're not on Test?

opp i ment for this to be posted in this thread not other test thread

Ok trying this for the 1st time ever so hope I do it right
These are all with em 20 maxxed aa/mage pet gear/self/merc buffs only
All vs the same white con spider in Argin-Hiz.
I wanted to see the difference between rog/war pets dps and between necro war pet and merc.
All pars a bout 7 1/2 mins long(length of 1st fight before pet died) figure I try and keep then bout the same time frame.

Now if Someone who know how to read these can answer me one question
I have level up a box account. Am I as a necro when it comes to mobs that have to be tanked better off just using 1 tank merc and 1 healer merc or 2 healer mercs and my pet



1st fight
100 healer merc on reactive healing level 97 necro war pet
Pet died after slow faded and before I could get it reslowed.

Walkingdeath - vs - A murkweb spider
Attempts 620 100%
Missed 0 0%
Dodged 0 0%
Parried 0 0%
Blocked 0 0%
Riposted 0 0%
Absorbed 0 0%
1846 5 0.81%
2051 39 6.29%
2454 23 3.71%
2726 202 32.58%
3062 1 0.16%
3402 17 2.74%
3671 2 0.32%
4078 24 3.87%
4279 2 0.32%
4754 15 2.42%
4887 2 0.32%
5066 1 0.16%
5430 27 4.35%
5495 1 0.16%
6103 3 0.48%
6105 18 2.9%
6712 3 0.48%
6781 20 3.23%
7320 2 0.32%
7457 16 2.58%
7929 4 0.65%
8133 20 3.23%
8537 1 0.16%
8809 25 4.03%
9145 2 0.32%
9485 23 3.71%
9754 1 0.16%
10161 17 2.74%
10837 18 2.9%
10971 1 0.16%
11513 16 2.58%
11578 2 0.32%
12186 1 0.16%
12189 8 1.29%
12795 4 0.65%
12864 14 2.26%
13540 7 1.13%
14012 1 0.16%
14216 8 1.29%
14892 12 1.94%
15568 12 1.94%

2nd fight.

100 merc tank with 100 merc healer on reactive
merc healer had no issues keeping merc going after slow landed and for me to reslow it.


Minlaten - vs - A murkweb spider
Attempts 618 100%
Missed 0 0%
Dodged 0 0%
Parried 0 0%
Blocked 0 0%
Riposted 0 0%
Absorbed 0 0%
1237 9 1.46%
1374 2 0.32%
1511 1 0.16%
1572 1 0.16%
1740 1 0.16%
2142 4 0.65%
2380 30 4.85%
2408 1 0.16%
2750 52 8.41%
2751 125 20.23%
2763 1 0.16%
2895 2 0.32%
3055 128 20.71%
3123 8 1.29%
3358 4 0.65%
3412 1 0.16%
3427 1 0.16%
3495 7 1.13%
3503 1 0.16%
3580 1 0.16%
3731 10 1.62%
3867 10 1.62%
3975 2 0.32%
4112 1 0.16%
4238 10 1.62%
4407 15 2.43%
4575 2 0.32%
4610 4 0.65%
4982 8 1.29%
5024 1 0.16%
5070 1 0.16%
5083 6 0.97%
5184 3 0.49%
5328 1 0.16%
5353 6 0.97%
5725 8 1.29%
5759 3 0.49%
5936 1 0.16%
6097 6 0.97%
6399 2 0.32%
6434 8 1.29%
6469 10 1.62%
6841 6 0.97%
7008 4 0.65%
7110 14 2.27%
7212 9 1.46%
7584 3 0.49%
7616 4 0.65%
7786 6 0.97%
7956 7 1.13%
8225 1 0.16%
8327 5 0.81%
8462 6 0.97%
8699 2 0.32%
8833 1 0.16%
9071 2 0.32%
9138 6 0.97%
9441 2 0.32%
9443 2 0.32%
9814 7 1.13%
10050 1 0.16%
10490 7 1.13%
11166 4 0.65%
11267 1 0.16%
11842 4 0.65%
12518 3 0.49%
13193 1 0.16%
13869 3 0.49%
14308 1 0.16%
14545 5 0.81%
15221 2 0.32%
15897 1 0.16%

Now during fight 2 I had my war pet in hitting the mob to get a semi idea of its dps output

/GU A murkweb spider in 463s, 1612k @3482dps --- Walkingdeath 879k @1966dps (54.5%)

Walkingdeath -vs- A murkweb spider: -- DMG: 878734 -- DPS: 1966 -- Scaled: 1890 -- Slash: 796696 -- DirDmg: 51013 -- Bash: 20709 -- Kick: 10316 -- Non-crit rate: 62.8% -- crit rate: 37.2% -- Attempts: 802 -- Hits: 802 -- Accuracy: 100% -- Avg Hit: 1095 -- Max hit: 2726 -- DMG to PC: 0




I then did a 3rd fight with the rog pet out
Again it was 100 war merc with 100 healer merc on reactive.
Healer merc had no issues keeping war merc up after slow faded and on this fight I had to re-slow 2 times as the 1st attempt to re-slow failed

Minlaten - vs - A murkweb spider
Attempts 618 100%
Missed 0 0%
Dodged 0 0%
Parried 0 0%
Blocked 0 0%
Riposted 0 0%
Absorbed 0 0%
1237 9 1.46%
1374 2 0.32%
1511 1 0.16%
1572 1 0.16%
1740 1 0.16%
2142 4 0.65%
2380 30 4.85%
2408 1 0.16%
2750 52 8.41%
2751 125 20.23%
2763 1 0.16%
2895 2 0.32%
3055 128 20.71%
3123 8 1.29%
3358 4 0.65%
3412 1 0.16%
3427 1 0.16%
3495 7 1.13%
3503 1 0.16%
3580 1 0.16%
3731 10 1.62%
3867 10 1.62%
3975 2 0.32%
4112 1 0.16%
4238 10 1.62%
4407 15 2.43%
4575 2 0.32%
4610 4 0.65%
4982 8 1.29%
5024 1 0.16%
5070 1 0.16%
5083 6 0.97%
5184 3 0.49%
5328 1 0.16%
5353 6 0.97%
5725 8 1.29%
5759 3 0.49%
5936 1 0.16%
6097 6 0.97%
6399 2 0.32%
6434 8 1.29%
6469 10 1.62%
6841 6 0.97%
7008 4 0.65%
7110 14 2.27%
7212 9 1.46%
7584 3 0.49%
7616 4 0.65%
7786 6 0.97%
7956 7 1.13%
8225 1 0.16%
8327 5 0.81%
8462 6 0.97%
8699 2 0.32%
8833 1 0.16%
9071 2 0.32%
9138 6 0.97%
9441 2 0.32%
9443 2 0.32%
9814 7 1.13%
10050 1 0.16%
10490 7 1.13%
11166 4 0.65%
11267 1 0.16%
11842 4 0.65%
12518 3 0.49%
13193 1 0.16%
13869 3 0.49%
14308 1 0.16%
14545 5 0.81%
15221 2 0.32%
15897 1 0.16%

And here is what the level 100 rog pet did for damage/dps.

/GU A murkweb spider in 465s, 1932k @4154dps --- Walkingdeath 1032k @2224dps (53.42%)

/tell Walkingdeath Walkingdeath -vs- A murkweb spider: -- DMG: 1031899 -- DPS: 2224 -- Scaled: 2219 -- Slash: 806629 -- Backstab: 161594 -- DirDmg: 63676 -- Non-crit rate: 63.2% -- crit rate: 36.8% -- Attempts: 826 -- Hits: 826 -- Accuracy: 100% -- Avg Hit: 1249 -- Max hit: 10376 -- DMG to PC: 0

This is the biggest lie, that is repeatedly quoted to make non pet users hate all pets. Mage + pet DOES NOT EQUAL tank + cleric + wizard. Mage can nuke for about 2/3 of what a wiz can nuke for. Mage brings about 20% of the "cleric" utility a cleric would give to a real tank. Mage can only do one or the other, nuke or heal, can't do both at the same time, further diluting those abilities. While a mage pet has a couple individual aspects that are good, over all it brings maybe 1/2 (?) of the benefits of a real tank.

Assuming similar levels of gear, a tank + cleric + wizard will do MUCH more DPS and be able to handle MUCH more incoming damage than a mage and his pet alone. To say anything else is a complete lie.

Yes, their are a couple named mobs around with very simple mechanics, that a mage can solo. But it is slow and tedious for a mage, with little room for error.

Again, assuming similar levels of gear, and hunting the same mobs in the same zones, I think a tank + cleric + wizard could kill about 3 times the mobs a solo mage + pet could kill, which is exactly as it should be.

Follow up item:

The primary raiding nuke salvo of many needs some attention as this project will very likely negatively impact it; So it would be helpful to know if A) you plan to lower the pets required for the last line of damage from 15 to 12, of have some similar solution or B) you haven't looked at it yet but plan to shortly or C) you have looked at it and decided, for some reason, not to make a change.

I think it's fairly apparent that taking a hit to the best dps and dpm spell the class has in a raid setting, simply due to a tanking rebalancing, will be problematic.

Sojero that is why it's a semantics like I said and you even back up what I said...

Shining Defense and Bastion of vie are 100% worthless to me as a ranger because I always keep Ro's cloak(15% vie) up. Just like they are 100% worthless to you as you have your disc up. You can't claim 10% is knocked off your disc with a cleric there and suddenly counts toward the cleric as Daegun claimed. Which is why I only quoted the disc part of his post and not the non disced part which is the true part of what he said.

It certainly explains a lot, aye ...

Sad thing is, there are not awefully many tanks to beg ... most tanks I know are either obligued to their own standard groups or are equipped a bit sub-par mentally (their gear is fine, though).

I said it a couple of times, but I will gladly repeat myself: Good tanks don't grow on trees!
And good tanks won't be coming back out of retirement only because pets get/got nerfed.

"We are trying to bring pets down to a level where it takes effort to keep them alive, but not so much effort that they're not worth the time to do so. This is a tricky balance point."

Keep them alive against what? At what level, gear and focus? Just what should the pet classes be able to do?

I have seen this question asked over and over again and yet to see it answered by Aristo or anyone else. Do the devs actually have a goal in mind they aren't sharing with us, or are you just changing things until it "feels right."

I am very concerned that most of the parses and data we are seeing is with 100 level characters with higher level focii, spells and AA. What about the lower level characters, with lower focii, lower level spells and AA, or who just don't have some of the spells and AA because they aren't high enough level or haven't earned enough AA points to get them yet? Not everyone is a subscriber or can afford to buy heroic characters. Many level their characters from level 1.

The more that things get tinkered with the more likely there will be unintended side effects. History has clearly shown this to have happened many times in the past. I'd take bets that what ever goes live will probably introduce some new bugs and issues, but I doubt I would find many takers. Then we can have a patch to fix the patch to fix the patch as usually happens.

I know there are too many possible combinations of level/gear/AA to test but perhaps we should look at a minimum what each of the heroic 85 cases can do to see the effect there. I'd try to run parses myself but with the latency issues I have with the game I can't give reliable data.

Deagun posted some parses with runes, which is somewhat valid from a data standpoint. Versus 1 mob, pets can achieve lower-then-player levels of Hit % using runes un-intelligently.

Now there are 2 problems with this:

1) No one actually spams runes versus 1 trash mob. If your pet is at 90-100% health there's no reason to hit a rune because your merc goes sits and does nothing while your pet is at 100% health. At the same time, if your pet drops to 20% health while you have no runes up you're in a bad place. Avoidance is always passively on, so it doesn't detract from spell casting and it is (obviously) always there. Now runes are actually extremely powerful if used intelligently, possibly more powerful than pure avoidance against one mob. However, in the parsed example they're only being used to up the absorbed % rather than actually being useful.

2) Runes are half as useful against 1 mob. This is hugely important because player avoidance carries over no matter how many mobs are present. Runes last 1/2 as long vs 2 mobs, 1/3 as long vs 3 mobs, etc. I think most of us agree we aren't in a bad place vs 1 mob. The problem is fighting 2+ mobs. The RS pet changes help, but I still think Prism Skin should be a defensive proc rather than offensive.

Not really because I don't run discs for single or even double mobs, but I am raid geared, and the reason I don't run parses with my sk to compare to pets etc, because it isn't a fair parse. I only start to do them when I feel threatened, any other time I run cleric shinning bastion for the 10% vie. Also we cannot run our discs 24/7, there are endurance costs and they lock out other discs, and they don't have the ability to have 100% up time because of their recast timers.

also as a ranger if you have the option to have shinning bastion on and you don't, you are losing out on the stun + heal portion which is more important than the vie. Also there will be times when your ro's is down, and it is good to have the vie on for those times.

Looking at ro's that is much the same as the paladin protective allegiance, and when my wives pally is tanking, that is always on her, and we always have shinning bastion on at the same time, it makes a huge difference.

That should read:
2) Runes are half as useful against 2 mobs.

Can't edit it now... but my bad

Sojero.... Block shining defense some time and you might see what I'm talking about. Then have a cleric cast shining bastion on you. Man some people...

So I went back to Eastern Wastes and decided that since Grek Squatnot was up I'd try and take him on. My old earth pet was dismissed and a new one was created.
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=41161

Last time I did the /resetaa command and assumed I still had no aa's assigned to my pet. However I forgot to turn off autogrant aa's so Rocky was created with:

Companion's Alacrity 3
Companion's Durability 9
Fortify Companion 6 (this was never used)
Companion's Agility 6
Elemental Agility 3
Elemental Alacrity 20
Elemental Durability 3
Elemental Fury 20
Frenzied Burnout 4 (never used)
Host in the Shell 1 (never used)
Mend Companion 1 (never used)
Pet Discipline 1
Sturdy Companion 6

After he was summoned I cast Burnout Rk. 2 and had my merc cast certitude 2. Merc on balanced and I provided spot heals when my merc went down to 20% mana. Here's the 22 minute parse (that ended when my pet was killed and Ghrek was at 40%):

Ghrek Squatnot on 8/13/2014 in 1364sec
Total
--- DMG: 2917671 (100%) @ 2139 dps (2018 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 10809773 @7496dps
Kartik
--- DMG: 2917455 (99.99%) @ 2145 dps (2018 sdps)
------ Total: 2917455 -- Hit: 2822562 -- Bash: 60931 -- Kick: 33962
------ Normal rate: 76.1% (69.5% of DMG) -- Critical rate: 23.9% (30.5% of DMG)
------ Attempts: 4392 -- Hits: 2672 -- Misses: 1327 -- Defended: 393 -- Accuracy: 66.8%
--- DMG to PC: 10174240 @7974dps
Tweelis
--- DMG: 216 (0.01%) @ 36 dps (0 sdps)
------ Total: 216 -- Crush: 200 -- DirDmg: 16
------ Normal rate: 100% (100% of DMG)
------ Attempts: 3 -- Hits: 2 -- Misses: 1 -- Defended: 0 -- Accuracy: 66.7%
--- DMG to PC: 32809 @16404dps
Furlakin
--- DMG to PC: 602724 @7534dps
Special: 7: 7th yr vet G: Glyph K: Kiss S: Staunch X: Slain $: Saved by DI
Produced by GamParse v1.0.3

Kartik -vs- Ghrek Squatnot: -- DMG: 2917455 -- DPS: 2145 -- Scaled: 2018 -- Hit: 2822562 -- Bash: 60931 -- Kick: 33962 -- Non-crit rate: 76.1% -- crit rate: 23.9% -- Attempts: 4392 -- Hits: 2672 -- Missed: 1327 -- Defended: 393 -- Accuracy: 66.8% -- Avg Hit: 1091 -- Max hit: 2114 -- DMG to PC: 10174240

Ghrek cast Veil of Snow (blindness) 12 times. http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=32854

Kartik cast earth elemental strike 174 times.

Kartik - vs - Ghrek Squatnot - Slashing
Attempts 1211 100%
Missed 99 8.18%
Dodged 28 2.31%
Parried 36 2.97%
Blocked 73 6.03%
Riposted 48 3.96%
Absorbed 0 0%
2510 455 37.57%
3234 35 2.89%
3957 32 2.64%
4680 29 2.39%
5404 32 2.64%
6127 32 2.64%
6850 35 2.89%
7573 38 3.14%
8297 37 3.06%
9020 24 1.98%
9743 43 3.55%
10467 23 1.9%
11190 21 1.73%
11913 25 2.06%
12637 13 1.07%
13360 17 1.4%
14083 6 0.5%
14806 9 0.74%
15530 12 0.99%
16253 9 0.74%

Kartik - vs - Ghrek Squatnot - Bashing
Attempts 1253 100%
Missed 118 9.42%
Dodged 38 3.03%
Parried 39 3.11%
Blocked 90 7.18%
Riposted 41 3.27%
Absorbed 0 0%
1788 73 5.83%
2510 409 32.64%
3234 29 2.31%
3957 29 2.31%
4680 27 2.15%
5404 25 2%
6127 32 2.55%
6850 20 1.6%
7573 25 2%
8297 33 2.63%
9020 36 2.87%
9743 30 2.39%
10467 29 2.31%
11190 28 2.23%
11913 25 2%
12637 21 1.68%
13360 18 1.44%
14083 13 1.04%
14806 9 0.72%
15530 7 0.56%
16253 9 0.72%

Kartik - vs - Ghrek Squatnot - Kick
Attempts 52 100%
Missed 4 7.69%
Dodged 0 0%
Parried 0 0%
Blocked 7 13.46%
Riposted 2 3.85%
Absorbed 0 0%
1789 18 34.62%
1791 2 3.85%
1796 1 1.92%
1798 2 3.85%
1800 3 5.77%
1807 2 3.85%
1811 1 1.92%
1813 2 3.85%
1818 3 5.77%
1820 1 1.92%
1822 2 3.85%
1824 1 1.92%
1829 1 1.92%

Why would I want to block the 10% vie part of shinning bastion? oh btw you can have shining defense and bastion of vie at the same time, not sure which one gets eaten first because i haven't cared to pay attention, I know that bastion has a heal when it fades. I also don't keep bastion up on my cleric, just shining.

This. I figured he wouldn't be publicly boasting in chat channels and taking credit for the manipulation, but to keep that to private messages and /tells. But I guess I figured wrong