Test Update 8/08/2014 - Pet Changes Round 3

I have to say I am impressed with Denial's ability to run his alt Mage with such skill. It is apparent that his earth pet can handily manage two yellow con end zone mobs.

It's easy to get wrapped up in a lot of esoteric data that can be easily manipulated to derive the parsers desired outcome. But to me, the proof of the pudding is in watching Denial's videos.

It reminds me of an old saw that I like:

"Are you going to believe me, or your lying eyes"

I'll be looking for a banner on the Mage Tower.

His pet was 1 second from death, multiple times in that clip (first one anyway, didnt see the 2nd). When I used to run fraps on MMO's to make videos set to music, I'd sometimes get 50 clips before I got the clip I wanted where everything goes right.

"Handily" I wouldn't use as the word. I've seen some SK's "handily" handle their active cooldowns better than his previous parses as well, but at least Denial was posting them

Right... Because doubling the number of swings would have no adverse effect when your defenses are based around runes with a hit # cap. When we parsed that we were manipulating it...

Or maybe if you are getting 100 hits in a minute (purely example) from one mob, and Prism Skin procs 6 times (again example), and you can hit Aegis of Nefori and Aegis of K twice and Auspice once (again, example), you would absorb 34% of those hits.

Add one mob and guess what happens? 200 incoming hits. You still only proc Prism skin 6 times and are able to hit Aegis of Nefori/Aegis of K twice and Auspice once. You still only abosrb 34 hits, which is 17%.

Now add a third mob. 300 incoming hits. You can't put out anymore runes than you could versus one mob. So you are now absorbing 11% of incoming hits. Is the problem evident now?

We actually absorb a lot less than those numbers, they were purely examples.

Just because it's close (but doable) with a raid focus does not mean the fundamental flaw in design doesn't exist. But I probably manipulated the math somewhere in there...

Circlee, a well respected mage posted in the veterans lounge her experience successfully moloing the two Soldiers guarding the AH mines. It's clearly doable.

Circlee:
"I molo'ed two yellow con soldiers in Argin Hiz the other day on live server with Earth pet and only magician/merc cleric buffs. They were the two soldiers that stand in front of the mines.

Now, it was not easy. I had to throw some heals. In fact I had to adjust my group spell weave to accommodate the situation-

1. Cast gargoyle pet on second mob.
2. Cast Fickle and Spear on main mob.
3. Cast Renewal on pet.
4. Rinse/repeat until main mob died. Then I could do my normal group spell weave afterwards.

I will say that it was much tougher than before. I obviously had to change the way I played in order to be successful. It took longer to do it this way than the old way.

But I did it. And I only bring this up to show that it can still be done. Someone mentioned with an enchanter that they wiped to two blues. I do not know what happened; maybe it was a freaky spike, maybe it is an exaggeration, maybe it is an agenda. I just think there are some tanks with agendas, and some magicians with agendas.

It is much more difficult. I would like it to be easier, for sure. Not easy like the old way, but easier in the sense that I don't want to cast a pet heal every fourth spell. I think there can be some sort of compromise that allows magicians the ability to solo, with some difficulty and risk throughout the encounter.

At least, that is my hope... "

Also, Beimeith just posted this in the same thread.

Beimeith:

"So, I loaded up a Mage on Test and went to Argin-Hiz. With an EM14 Earth pet that had only Burnout, Iceflame, DS, and Cleric Merc buffs, the pet was able to pretty reliably tank BOTH a yellow con and a while con soldier at the same time. (They were the two in front of the mine for reference). I didn't use any activated defensive abilities, and I'm a pretty lackluster Magician.

I see absolutely nothing to complain about. It seems to me the changes actually didn't go far enough and need to be made larger. "

These nerfs are on the test server...

Edit: I'd very much like to see the evidence of an EM14 earth pet tanking two soldiers with one cleric merc and no support...

For some reason Gamparse refuses to work for me and will only parse my DoTs no matter how close to the mob I am (and all of the pet tanking data is in my log). I'm unable to share any data myself, so please would more people post group-geared necro data! Thanks!

You can come and watch me if you want.

Refuses to work for you how? And which version?

Three keepers at once. I'm happy they actually purpled me once. Self buffs + merc buffs only. Hey, I had to actually self heal twice and used my 4.2k HoT for the fun of it with 3 on me. Ya, it's cherry picked since it's the only time I've attempted it. Now show me pet casters doing this as their tank pets have always out tanked rangers minus WS train wrecking root/mez/high burst group glory. I would hope no one wants to see the tank pets weaker than rangers.... I'll try 4 to see if that splats me which it should for the fun of it later on.

Combined: A keeper of the flame on 8/10/2014 in 115sec
Hannil
--- DMG: 6333387 @ 55073 sdps (55073 dps in 115s) [100%]
--- DMG to PC: 825127 @7238dps
Total
--- DMG: 6333387 @ 55073 sdps (55073 dps in 115s) [100%]
--- DMG to PC: 825127 @7238dps
Special: 7: 7th Vet G: Glyph M: Secrets K: Kiss S: Staunch X: Slain $: Saved by DI
Produced by GamParse v1.0.5

Hannil - 89
--- Auspice of the Hunter - 1
--- Bosquestalker Disc - 1
--- Brell's Sacred Stone Balm - 4
--- Deafening Weapons Strike II - 7
--- Desperate Drenching Rk. III - 2
--- Elemental Arrow - 1
--- Empowered Blades - 1
--- Entrap - 2
--- Ferocious Kick - 8
--- Focused Rain of Arrows Rk. III - 6
--- Forecasted Shots Rk. III - 3
--- Glacial Arrow - 1
--- Guardian of the Forest - 1
--- Imbued Ferocity - 1
--- Natural Alignment - 1
--- Nature's Fury - 14
--- Outrider's Attack - 1
--- Outrider's Evasion - 1
--- Protection of the Spirit Wolf - 1
--- Scout's Mastery of Fire - 1
--- Stunning Kick - 1
--- Summer's Gale Rk. III - 27
--- Third Spire of the Pathfinders - 1
--- Volatile Arrow - 1
--- Weapon Shield Disc - 1
Produced by GamParse v1.0.5

Combined: A keeper of the flame on 8/10/2014
Watumbus - 20
--- Fifteenth Emblem Rk. II - 2
--- Fraught Renewal Rk. II - 3
--- Reverent Elixir Rk. II - 1
--- Reverent Light Rk. II - 14
Produced by GamParse v1.0.5

Hannil - vs - Combined: A keeper of the flame
Attempts 555 100%
Missed 26 4.68%
Dodged 13 2.34%
Parried 260 46.85%
Blocked 0 0%
Riposted 97 17.48%
Absorbed 0 0%
1212 2 0.36%
1557 2 0.36%
1850 3 0.54%
1851 2 0.36%
1857 1 0.18%
1907 1 0.18%
1942 1 0.18%
2378 31 5.59%
2451 9 1.62%
2596 1 0.18%
2907 3 0.54%
2942 2 0.36%
2996 2 0.36%
3435 4 0.72%
3541 1 0.18%
3963 3 0.54%
3980 3 0.54%
4086 1 0.18%
4326 1 0.18%
4492 7 1.26%
4630 1 0.18%
4673 1 0.18%
5021 5 0.9%
5365 2 0.36%
5549 4 0.72%
5711 1 0.18%
5720 2 0.36%
6057 1 0.18%
6077 4 0.72%
6265 3 0.54%
6403 2 0.36%
6412 1 0.18%
6533 1 0.18%
6606 4 0.72%
6632 1 0.18%
6749 1 0.18%
6810 1 0.18%
7096 1 0.18%
7135 6 1.08%
7663 3 0.54%
7788 3 0.54%
7900 3 0.54%
8134 4 0.72%
8191 3 0.54%
8444 1 0.18%
8720 1 0.18%
9248 2 0.36%
9534 1 0.18%
9777 3 0.54%
9901 1 0.18%
10306 1 0.18%
10624 1 0.18%
10640 1 0.18%
10834 2 0.36%
11169 2 0.36%
11713 1 0.18%
12258 1 0.18%
12420 2 0.36%
12803 1 0.18%

17s in is when I pulled the 3rd mob on me. ~20s in I purpled. 22s in is when I hit WS. Only PotSW and OE(I was cocky thinking I could kill the 1st mob with defensive aa running only and not have to use ws /wave purple), 2 tank shawl procs. to lazy to look how many ranger ro procs, 1 fero kick, 1 e-kick, and 1 heal from me were cast/proc before getting the 3rd mob on me.

Is that banner linked? Pretty clear he would've been fine if not for the 3rd mob.

Dodged
Parried
Tried to riposte but missed
Skill up at making Banners <100>

Thank you for the comparative ranger information. So now we see a ranger out performing the best pet in game.

To recap:This entire exercise is predicated on The premise that pets have a better capacity to survive in virtually all situations as compared to players. That's the statement that was given and the one that governs the other more detailed objects for this exercise.

Since that premise we've seen That an actively played tank took only 6K damage a second verses an actively played Mage pet taking around 15K per second when fighting 2 mobs in current content. On a rolling 6 second basis the worst 6 second time period for that tank was 96k damage verses 200k for the pet. The warrior didn't win by a little bit but a huge margin. When fighting one mob the actively played warrior won by a very large margin.

If we are still proceeding with this nerf. Despite the fact that PC tanks are obviously way ahead in the group game. Despite the fact that pets are not a good tanking option in two of the last three most recently released zones. And despite the fact those pets can't even be the tank if 5 of the 8 dips classes are present. Then we need to tweak a bunch of items, such as Sancus and others listed.

The one I would add to the list.is it's pretty clear that the primary raiding nuke for the Mage class will be negatively impacted as it relies on lots of pets raid wide being on the hate list. I'd suggest dropping total pets needed to max it out from 15 to 12, which is perhaps the simplest solution. It's going to be necessary as some of the lesser pets won't hang in as they did and you really don't want this to be both a tanking and dips nerf.

As others said return the RS pet to where it was pre Argin. It's a primary raiding spell. It had 155K hp before Argin. It has roughly 114k hp on test. It needs that hp to work as it did in the raid game.

The heal upgrade has considerably more value if there is anyway to avoid the target swap.

Others gave good suggests on ways to cover the impact this project has caused to our activated abilities and the impacts in multiple mob encounters.

You are comparing a ranger in current raid gear using all his longest cooldown abilities with a mage having one slot of Plane of War half breed focus casting spammable short cooldown abilities. Your conclusions are insupportable.

/sigh

Well CotF T1 Raid Focus using every long cooldown available to me (pre-buffed with FBO/VT). This was two yellows and a blue cause I couldn't find a 3rd keeper model:
Combined: A keeper of the flame on 8/10/2014

Sancus - 17
--- Aegis of Kildrukaun - 1
--- Aegis of Nefori Rk. II - 1
--- Auspice of Shadows Rk. II - 1
--- Cloak of Shadows - 1
--- Companion's Blessing - 1
--- Empowered Focus of Arcanum - 1
--- Fire Core - 1
--- First Spire of Elements - 1
--- Force of Elements - 1
--- Fortify Companion - 1
--- Host in the Shell - 1
--- Rain of Blistersteel Rk. III - 1
--- Renewal of Hererra Rk. II - 1
--- Replenish Companion - 1
--- Second Wind Ward - 1
--- Silent Casting - 1
--- Twincast - 1

Produced by GamParse v1.0.3

I lasted 30 seconds before death and apparently I didn't get a tanking parse. Will try again later (cause I can only do this every 20 minutes).

Rangers and pallies are not solo classes.

Second attempt (3 keepers)... didn't even have time to hit everything:

A keeper of the flame on 8/10/2014

Sancus - 7
--- Aegis of Kildrukaun - 1
--- Aegis of Nefori Rk. II - 1
--- Auspice of Shadows Rk. II - 1
--- Cloak of Shadows - 1
--- Fortify Companion - 1
--- Host in the Shell - 1
--- Replenish Companion - 1

Produced by GamParse v1.0.3
Tanking summary for: Jonekn (Sancus) --- Total damage: 392571 --- Avg hit: 5234 --- Swings: 132 --- Defended: 48 (36.4%) --- Hit: 75 (56.8%) --- Missed: 9 (6.8%) --- Accuracy: 89.3% --- Dodged: 0 (0%) --- Parried: 0 (0%) --- Blocked: 1 (0.8%) --- Riposted: 16 (12.2%) --- Absorbed: 31 (23.5%)

Your argument that pets should be strong because solo class is the same as arguing for an all around superior class. Tanking and DPS are too much of Everquest. Good tanking substitutes for many things like good healing and crowd control. Crowd control means little if the tanking is so good as to handle two mobs at once easily as your pet does.

"Solo class" is the same as "super class".

I just want to add...

'Report' distance for named pet melee damage is borked.

I just had a water pet tank Shoon, trying to get a DPS parse for it (because I feel it should be fairly significant boost from current live one, if it's getting nerfed so) and nothing showed up but the nuke damage on parse. I had AD pet aura on pet the entire fight (so was within 50' of pet the entire time).

So, I expanded my melee spam chat window, and decided to see what was going on...

You now have to be within 60' of the mob, to see pet's melee damage...

vs. raid/named mobs, with their huge melee range, that is ridiculous.

I know non-named pets show their damage to a much larger range. Why can't named pets do the same?

Absolutely ridiculous.

What is your definition of a solo class?

Mine is: A solo class means that the class can solo effectively where classes who are not solo classes, need a group.

Any reasonable person would agree.

Delbaeth, you're absolutely right...

I have a friend, who recently showed his son how to play. His son asked "is there any cheat codes in this game?" and his father said... "well, there is one, on the startup screen..."

The son asked "What do I have to do?"

Father replied "Choose necro."

Solo classes have always been the 'super' classes... They do one thing well... solo.

You know, I really wish they'd get rid of mercs....

Nobody ever complained about how well pets tanked before mercs.

SoF and earlier, I used to duo with a druid friend a lot, she commented all the time how my pet was a better tank than some raid geared tanks, plus the fact that she never had to worry about agro from heals on pet.

Back then, it was still a chore, I mean a real chore, for me to beat T2 named mobs, solo, with group pet focus. I could do it, about 70% of the time, but was always a fair chance, or a small mistake, and poof, down in a instant. People saw magicians do it all the time. They also saw the fail rate, too... I challenge anyone to truly solo even a T1 named in current content with a magician nowadays.

This crusade is not about how well pets do or don't tank. Their relative power hasn't changed in many years. In the last 8-9 years, they've always tanked circles around poorly played tanks, and well played tanks tank circles around them. This crusade is about class envy, pure and simple.