Testing needed: Upcoming changes to mana/endurance return abilities

Point taken, thanks for the answer.

It was a number I made up, it doesn't even particularly matter how many spells wizards casts. The point basically was that melee do damage of a thousand cuts. We have to continually keep swinging and clicking everything we have up to turn our numbers. We do thousands to your hundreds, the concept of auto attack damage being a huge portion is flawed because we all draw so much more damage from whatever our class abilities are. If we are out of endurance we're doing crap damage.

Rogues got a disc with cotf that keeps us from completely falling off the scale outside of 90 seconds, it was greatly needed and helps. Weapon damage from T4 RoF to CotF went from 114 to 118. Hell weapon damage from T2 RoF to CotF went from 110 to 118. I'm keeping my conversation limited to the difference of melee and casters. Necros and mages are in there with you guys in the mana regen crowd and necros have already been nerfed.

On the forums, I haven't seen melee calling for nerfs of casters. Some people are pissed about the mage pet posts but really that's about it. I don't hear people asking for casters to be nerfed either, every discussion in game I've ever had was melee wanting to be tuned up some to make up for the crap we've been dealing with. I'm not saying that wizard nerfs are warranted, I'm just dealing with this as it comes. Claw being nerfed effects wizards, rest being nerfed effects the entire raid. This isn't coming from us, this is the dev team saying death needs to have a penalty, and laying it squarely on the shoulders of melee *AND* talking about nerfing rest in the same breath.

Players have no idea here what the goals are, apparently death isn't a big enough deal, so it needs to be harder on melee.

If I die in shadow or chelsith there is no sitting out of combat. I'm forcefully kept in by AoEs and mechanics that won't let me sit and med. I can sit forever in shadow and I'll never regen endurance, rest is ALL we have.

You also need to keep in mind anything which stops the casters from casting has more of an impact than a melee failing a swing on their weapon, fizzles still use a casters mana, yet does no damage and leaves them out of the fight for a few seconds while the spell bar refreshes, all the time the melee are still swinging their weapons and only losing a few hundred damage when they themselves miss a swing.

That said I don't think this sweeping rest change is needed, but a few classes could use individual adjustment.

Rangers are a mana/endurance class and we have no way to regen mana but sit and med (unless you count that this expansions BP clicky that actually cripples us for 7500 mana, wow we can do a lot with that)

Your 1 nuke is dozens of my swings. But in all actuality this isn't particularly relevant to the conversation. I don't agree that wizards need nerfing any more than melee need it.

And if you are going to change how melee work, then that has to happen at the same time any rest nerf happens. Even testing these things separately is a waste of time, without some real forms of endurance regen and actually addressing endurance management you're coming up with numbers that have no practical application other than to nerf 4 classes into the ground.

I have always treated endurance as a resource to be managed. *shrug* I still manage to show up in the top 10 on our parses, and very rarely run out of endurance, even in groups. However, I AM aware that I don't do the balls to the wall dps that other rogues here do. Odds are good, they would top me on a parse. Which of us would come out on top on a combined parse is up for grabs. That's neither here nor there to my concerns. Melee absolutely WILL need something to compensate, and it WILL need to be addressed, probably before these changes go live, or at the same time they go live.

I am a raider. I have been a raider very nearly my entire 14 years of Everquest. 3 different characters. I have raided on my rogue since August 2008. The last several days of raiding, I have watched the monks and zerkers in my raid group drain their endurance pools like they had a hole in the bottom. I have watched my warriors die, get rezzed, hit rest, and go right back into the fight. Sometimes watching them tank the very same mob that killed them, when we're low on tanks, and the others are busy. Of course, the mob frequently chewed through 3 or 4 dps before someone managed to hit a defensive disc of some sort, so now THOSE melee are without endurance also. If you put in these changes to rest, how do you propose that warriors get right back on that horse after death? "Recruit more warriors" is not a valid answer.

The idea proposed earlier of making the Respite line into more of an endurance harvest seems to me to make the most sense. You don't want people milking it, then make it impossible to milk it. Give it a long casting time, and a flat amount of endurance returned. Shorten the casting time, and add a medium duration (6-10 second) stun on it. I would support either of these over the current plans. The current plans tell me "go back to bind, and hang out in the guild hall, so that no one can buff you, and no AE's fire around you" and that's not exactly productive.

For that matter, where is the endurance regen? When I'm fully buffed for raids, I have an endurance regen listed in my Stats window of 87. I also have a MANA REGEN listed of 238. Please tell me how that makes sense? I realize that it's on the gear and sometimes augs because they're all/all, but I think it illustrates the point of the difference between endurance regen and mana regen pretty clearly.

We have endurance regen on Skin. We have endurance regen on SE. There is endurance regen in Paragon, and a bard song. And even the ones we have, do not compete with the mana regeneration on them, even before adding in buffs like C, and additional tools like QM and mod rods. If you're planning on neutering our disc that helps us get back into the game, then you REALLY need to look into adding endurance regen to gear, talk to Elidroth about endurance AA's, and get some endurance regen going on some gear. While it's supposed to be a resource to be managed, no one gets very far on $5 a week, if there's no more coming in.

I'm chopping out your quote merely to save space. I also raid as a rogue, and we obviously have the least endurance consumption as it is. On long events I will run low but rarely run out, however after a death I'm forever stuck with 29% being as good as I'm going to get, which sort of works for us.

I would agree with you, but, if you make it a long timer(ie harvest), we still have warriors who aren't able to come back into the fight and be able to jack.

Just make it an actual disc. If you don't want it used mid-fight then turn it into an actual discipline instead of a buff. Remove all combat limitations on it, and raise it higher than 29%. Or just leave it alone and make 7th wind line worth using, by making it a disc with a higher endurance regen mod, and shorten the timer.

All melee damage is tied to discs, we're already limited by disc stacking as it is.

Figured I would just leave this information here, also:

Spiritual Evolution Rk. III
5:Increase Mana by 78 per tick
8:Increase Hitpoints by 86 per tick
9:Increase Endurance by 5 per tick

Granitebark Blessing Rk. III
4:Increase Mana by 44 per tick
7:Increase Endurance by 6 per tick

Paragon of Spirit
9:Increase Hitpoints by 3490 per tick
10:Increase Mana by 1820 per tick
11:Increase Endurance by 197 per tick

Pulse of Salarra Rk. III
9:Increase Hitpoints by 159 per tick
10:Increase Mana by 105 per tick
11:Increase Endurance by 16 per tick

I edited out the non-regen portions of the spells, because they're irrelevant, and took up a lot more space. Also note, Pulse and Paragon don't stack, so you get one or the other. Seeing as how every one of those has mana regen greater (in some cases, MUCH greater) than endurance regen, and there are buffs and AA's which give mana but no endurance, how about a little parity? That in and of itself might go a ways to reduce the angst suffered by the players.

Honestly, I'd leave the timer and restrictions just like they are, if the stun and/or long cast time were added. And have it just do a flat amount at the end, like harvest. *grins* The casters aren't going to be any happier than the melee about the current change proposal, when all the tanks and melee are in the guild hall, trying to get endurance to be able to perform their raid roles. Who else is the raid boss going to munch on?

I raid a semi public group on Tunare, we won't even being doing that. We don't have guild banners or fellowships with any sizeable chunk of the raid force. The concept of raid banners got a couple pages of support on the forums but no dev ever responded.

Throwing down some numbers so that we get an idea of how monks are with going through endurance.

Here are the numbers for our "sustain" endurance drain. These are abilities that we hit every time they refresh and I would say should be what is considered our baseline.

Shadewalkers Synergy Rk 3 - 467 every 30 sec
Flying kick - 0
stunning kick - 0 (i believe)
tiger claw - 0
Phantom Partisan rk3 - 221 every 30 sec
Vigorous Shuriken - 125 every 6 sec (only 600 dd on a target close to us, I will likely drop this if rest change goes in)

So without doing anything other then our baseline we are burning through
1313 endurance every 30 sec

My endurance regen number is 63 so I gain back (my understanding is that this 63 is gained back every 6 sec, rather then every sec).
315 endurance every 30 sec

In my opinion we should have closer numbers there, say 1100 regained, 1300 lost every 30 sec. So that our baseline sustained we can maintain for longer periods of time. The real drain on our endurance should be the burn discs.

Now lets look at what happens when a monk adds pulling to this.
Echo of Prevarication rk 3 - 705 reuse 12 sec

Now since we need to be out of combat to use the ability and our drop out of combat (imitate death) is on a 2min refresh then we can say we only used it once every 2 min. So lets see in a 4 min span what our numbers look like
So for just sustained dps during the 4 min.
Baseline x8 = 10504

Add in the 2 uses of the pull abillity
10504 + 705x2 = 11914

Endurance regen baseline x8 = 2520

Thats a significant drain on the endurance pool without even getting into using discs to increase the dps on the mobs. Again tweaking the costs of our sustained abilities and the amount we can regen our endurance to make these closer together to allow for longer sustained makes sense to me. Gone are the days when auto attack is the melee's only button to worry about. Now we have abilities which we need to press to our baseline sustained dps.

Szan

For endurance regen to matter it cannot be some 5 or 16 regen per tick. 16 per tick is 160 a minute. Zerkers use what 4k a minute on non burn disc ? 16 a tick is not going to help at all.

The only way to make this balanced is give each class its own endurance regen ability with separate numbers. Why ? because not every class is equal not every class consumes as much endurance. Tanks need a way to regen a large pool instantly, melee dps need ways to regen endurance over time but it has to be enough to matter. I.E if im using a 10 minute refresh endurance ability it better regen more endurance than i consume every 30s or for whatever the duration of that ability is.

One suggestion that also is not here. Seventh Wind. This 38m timer is absurd the regen is decent but we simply cannot use it because no one wants to be locked out of respite for 38m.

A solution
1. Change respite to give a large % based endurnace instance instead of over time and increase the reuse timer.
2. Change seventh wind reuse to 7m and change the timer.

This will give melee a way to regen endurance but not actually have infinite endurance for the entire fight.

Another solution is we struggle to find endurance/mana after dying. Change all rezzes to rez you back with 30% endurance/mana.

I agree that we need the change to runes addressed and for people to stop hiding from the issue. It's pretty sad that a change happens without any discussion and that all we are left to do is to assume why, then when we do we have someone snipe at us about making assumptions. If you don't want us to make assumptions, then come out and be honest or stop complaining about people making assumptions.

These changes are fantastic and long-needed. Having to manage resources carefully over the course of a play session was always part of Everquest, and being able to do so was a mark of player skill. This goes a long way towards making EQ back into a thinking man's game rather than a mindless burnfest.

I would wait to have the rune discussion till a dev actually states that it will happen. Please leave this thread for its intended purpose and open a new one to discuss that.

Having longer downtimes will not make this game "smarter." This will hurt nonelite guilds more than anyone, guilds that can't "burn mindlessly" to begin with.

The only smart way to play a berserker with these changes is to not play at all.

These changes are a little scary. But I have faith it'll all work out in the end, and the devs will make adjustments if they're needed. I met some of them at Fan Faire and was very impressed with how they listened to my concerns and gave thoughtful replies. I'm confident this will all be okay

some changes did need to be done.. some classes were so far ahead of others.. in terms of dps, god like abilities.. I do see these as being good for the game.. no class should be able to hugely outdo another in anything.. aside from their class only abilities.. that's a whole different ballgame.. anything that seems too good for a class, it usually is.. meaning its way overpowered..

my 2cp

I would test copy over, but I can't..since I used the heroic upgrade on my main toon..not knowing this would forbid me of ever using the /testcopy function again!

That and druids dont have *any* get-back-in-the-fight abilities to test anyways!

You mean until after they implement the changes and wait over a year to discuss it in any way like they did with the stun changes?

honestly as I said this thread is for certain changes, and since what you are asking are not in the scope of the changes presented, I hope they don't do that to chanters, but your only hurting others by clustering this one up with your issue, please open a new thread, or pm a dev or roshen, don't distract from what is actually happening with "OMG the sky is falling!"