Underfoot was over kill and cotf was under kill. Both hurt eq in the end. Hence why the aa grant heroic chars and smedly posting on reddit recently.
It has been a fun discussion. Thanks for listening and disagreeing with me. That is what the forums are all about!
Raiders should be challenged in the raid game and groupers should be challenged in the group game, currently no one is challenged in any shape or form. The most challenging raid at the moment is Neriak 2 Lich phase and that is just a challenge to stay awake.
I just wonder, would it really be that bad if raid like gear could be gotten through an achievement/ha/ or group oriented quest? Maybe gear that is close to raid but still not as good. Gear that would be better and next step up from group gear. This would help get people a stepping stone that could help propel them to raid.
I think most raiders would be fine with that as long as it wasn't too close and that it actually required a huge time investment like raiding does. Getting a full set of group gear in cotf t1 is ridiculously easy compared to previous expansions. Granted cotf isn't done yet, but still... I often wish that for my alts and wish that cultural or something like it could bridge the gap.
Devs spoke on that question a year or so ago. The answer was - the best items in the game will come from raiding. Not from tradeskilling, not from installment plan/currency group content or shrouded group content - honest to goodness raiding. They've also spoken on the topic of small force raids. They looked at reducing the max number of players and they did smaller force "hardmode" raids during SOD. In both cases there was an entirely predictable and understandable outcry. At the first Guild Summit (a get together organized by SOE to discuss a wide range of player issues) SOE pledged that it would stop changing the max number of players. It would arrive at a number and stick with it. Such positions have a lot of merit - if you know what the rules are you can plan accordingly. Which leads back to raid loot rewards for groups content achievements. IF you can get raid quality loot from group content, why raid? If Orc1 drops 600AC BP's, why kill dragons? (Even better, if you can watch TV and swill suds, why kill yourself to reach level 85. Click, whee! is so much easier). There's a rationale for sustained effective effort results in character improvement. (Besides, is a dragon so feeble that it can be killed by 6 players likely to be able to hung on to significant treasure with seriously big and dangerous dragons around? Not likely. Tiny Queene would not even be a snack for Darkbane the Colossus who requires 54 players to put down.) Easymode and the spectrum leading to out and out ghostkilling does affect the integrity of the game. A trophy gotten cheaply (or heaven forfend by outright cheating) DOES affect everyone in the game - it tarnishes the trophies won fairly and turns achievement into dross. Nice trophy. Where did you buy it? Um I was awarded it. Lol, sure you were. Like I haven't seen hundreds of them on players who don't even know where the bazaar is. Hahahaha! If one was any good at EQ at all one never needed Easymode - it was already easy as pie.
Did you read what I wrote? I said raid like gear .....not they should get raid gear. I understand that raid gear should be a reward for raiding however others are correct that the difference in group gear vs raid gear is quite a huge jump. A middle ground stepping stone gear like a preraid gear that is better than the best group but not as good as raid gear.
so... something between the 3+3 group, and the 54 man raid? Look at how much love A huge mistake ( who is 1 groupable) and undefeated blade got... loot at how many people are scared about PoWar ''2-group'' names. there's already not that much difference between coTF gear and ToV gear... all aug drop in group content. i'm not quite sure what you'd expect from a 12-man content... 100 hp more than the current latent-ether would probably be the best you could aim for, anymore than that and ToV no longer matter gear dosen't matter half as much as you make it ... people failed on Huge mistake because they didn't CC the adds, not because they lacked gear.
Did you read what I wrote? Group content should provide group gear. Pre-current content raid gear should be provided by previous raid content. The middle ground between non-raider and raider is pickup and family guild raider where some raid drops improve the overall quality of your mostly group gear. One does not generally press "Click, whee" collect one's level 85, AA grant, and heroic gear do some group content that provides better than the best group content and apply to a serious raid guild. There's a whole bunch of does some raiding kower level and family guilds who quite properly bridge the gap between not raiding (and therefore NOT entitled to better than the best group gear) and raiding some leading possibly to raiding full time. As usual people who don't put in the effort strain themselves, strain logic, and strain design to suggest that they are entitled to rewards for achievements they have not achieved. While SOE might produce some available for a month during the year better than usual group gear, there's no reason to, and every reason not to, create 6 person "like raids" that drop "like raid gear" to like brIdge like the gap between not raider and raider. Casual and family guilds perform that service, and doing so keeps them in business, by light raiding.
that kinda happened on vox 2.5 year ago. I'm not sure what you expect from it? skilled and dedicated player plowed trough group content super fast, a crapload of people got stuck at lvl 70s when defiant gear stop
They did that with progression servers. Accomplishers hit max level in days and asked for new content to be opened up. Non-accomplishers were aghast. They are sort of doing this with "Heroic" Characters. any Gold character that isn't level 90 and hasn't replaced all of their gear in a couple of weeks isn't being played to a very high standard IMO.
I think a lot of the issue that discussions like this have are related talking past each other. I believe I have a grip on what others seem to want (I realize that this may not be the case), and I know I have a grip on what I want. Others view what I want as something different than what I do. I am either unable to get others to see things the way I am seeing them (because the posts that related to my comments really aren't looking at things the same way I do). I feel that it makes discussions harder if ideas aren't viewed in the same light. This does not mean we should agree, simply that we both see the same color as orange so that we can agree or disagree on liking orange from a common ground. So lets go back to bullet points! 1. People tend to want EQ to require groups of players to do things (Most people agree here?) 2. People tend to equate the number of people to time requirements and as a way of gauging the hardness of something 3. People tend to want EQ to be "hard" without being overly punishing (this is likely more of a 50/50 split as to what equates hard and what doesn't) 4. Everyone wants to have fun 5. The majority of the current player base wants things to require time a significant time investment 6. Invested players of a large portion tend to want others to have the same investment as themselves Which of these do people agree with and what others would help keep the discussion from going past at 90 miles an hour instead of getting to understand each others view point to have a better discussion?
1. I personally feel that EQ has always allowed the ability of people to play solo / group / large groups (raid) from the outset. You could solo early on, but grouping was much more efficient. Raids were required to kill some things (early group content) and formed into more spectacular events (killing Vox/Naggy). So I will concede the point (really, I agree with you) that EQ is meant to be a group required game. 2. I don't feel that having 53 minions and 1 leader makes things "harder" other than the human factor. I don't feel most raid events are "hard". I feel that leading 54 ppl out of the paper sack is hard, but then again I work in IT and have a hard view point on the average person. (MOTO: Everyone is stupid until proven innocent). I think having 1 person and a stupid ai (or 1 person and multiple characters botting) is much more of a challenge than having 54 ppl who can all think on their own. Harder to me is doing it all myself instead of letting others do part of the work. This is a point that I won't agree with many on you ever, and I understand that point and concede that I am in the minority. Raiding in EQ will always be the focus (dang you vox and naggy.. you ruined 2 grouping the ghoul lord at 35 for me!). 3. Making something hard to me is .. a very fine point. There is hard and there is punitive. Losing all my gear because my corpse rotted is a punitive hard, and feels real to me. Making me run 2 hours back to where I was hunting is punitive and annoying, but not in the least bit hard. Mobs 1 rounding me is hard and annoying, but not punitive. It simply means that I am locked out of that content due to being unable to do it. Having battles that require planning and or reaction can make them hard, but this really isn't part of EQ. "You have FM? OK pull!". You could state that grinding can equate to hardness. You are required to put in so much time investment to be able to consume certain content. This relates to the mob 1 rounding me idea. I am unable to do content until I have put in X time investment. This is how current EQ has managed "hard" to me. The reason that I push ideas such as 2 mercs is not to ease the "hardness" of EQ. It is more to allow more options. Allowing options in this manner, however, goes against #1 and I understand the desire people have to avoid it. 4. I of course think everyone wants to have fun. Some peoples fun is to keep others from having fun and/or is in direct competition with others fun. EQ has never been a competitive game to me. I enjoyed watching the high end guilds fight for first kill back in the day. That was quite a fun battle sometimes! Other than that, I don't see EQ as competitive. It is put in the time or not put in the time sort of game. If you enjoy putting in the time you enjoy the game, if you don't you find another. We have 15 years of EQ here though, and catching up to current content without the AA auto grant / heroic character creation can be very intimidating to non current players (returnees mainly). Many current players won't even consider alts due to the time investment to get to current content going beyond the fun mark. 5. Time investment has always been a staple of EQ. It is the one sticking point that even I won't argue against. When I can only spend 20 mins on EQ in a day, then I spend 20 mins goofing around and talking. That is just what EQ has always been. (w00t 2 month heck levels baby!) 6. This is one of those points that those who feel strongly about feel VERY strongly about. I don't think that other players should spend 15 years playing EQ unless they want to. I don't think that me having survived heck levels and other EQ lore means I deserve more or should get more. I had fun for 15 years, that is my reward. I know many feel that their "reward" is tarnished if others gain it in a different manner. I just don't feel that the reward is in the product. I find it in the production. This is a point that there will likely never been a strong agreement on.
I only speak for myself and what I have seen in my small world of friends. 1. We want EQ to have stuff for lots of different people and their varying desires. Some areas or stuff to solo mainly being old stuff or an entry zone. Some areas to wing it with a mash up group that might not be the greatest mainly being the end tiers of old expansions and the middle of the current expansion. Some areas that require 6 actual people with an understanding of what they are doing and their class for those that want more of a challenge or time investment. 2. Any time you have to coordinate more people, have to have more people understand what to do, have to have multiple people to fill each role then yes that makes it harder. This game has always been risk vs reward so the risk from 54 peoples timing stuff well to win, 12 people executing their job well is greater then two people and two AI mercenarys. The rewards and power gained should reflect that period. 3. My group wants their to be stuff for all. Hard needs some zones easy needs others. It saddens us that every zone, quest or item now seems to have to be reachable by anyone regardless of their circumstances. Rather then then someone with little time playing solo playing in a few zones and those with lots of time and a full group playing in others with rewards based on which but progress to be made by either. I hate to generalize but it really seems like the "entitlement bug" has taken over this game in the past year or two coinciding with all the changes that were more like hand outs then tools to catch up. 4. There is no way to make it fun for all. You make it so everyone has lots and lots of choices and they will do whats fun for them at that time based on their circumstances. 5. Not everything needs to fit in a single mold. We would like to see some stuff that allows for progression for those with little time but not everything. We also realize that there should be an equal amount of other stuff that does take lots of time for those that do enjoy that or put in the extra time at the gym because they can. 6. This is where we also see a big divide among differing stances. Everyone keeps seeming to be polar opposites when in fact I generally think most just want the middle ground. Giving new or returning players a expedited means to catch up and progress but not to the point that its so hollow and cheap that it defeats the very nature of the game and simply chases people away out of boredom soon after. My personal opinion is that if you fly someone up 2/3rds of a mountain and then say finish, more often then not they are going to simply just fail. Or in this case quit or just start complaining for more hand outs. But had you given them a ton of help, training, support and knowledge for 2/3rds of that journey instead and then said take what you learned to finish the last 3rd on your own more often then not they would then finish. Since they are now invested and understand both their toon and the nature of this game to begin with. The former was the option chosen by the team and now seems to be the basis for some of the most outrageous requests I have seen in a while from the player base.
