Rogue Suggestions. Rogues feel free to weigh in.

Discussion in 'Melee' started by Gloomfall, Feb 3, 2014.

  1. Harabakc Augur

    At this point I'm stacking AC, it's kind of stupid we need to do that kind of thing.
  2. Bahdah Augur

    what are you doing that you would need to stack ac...............
  3. Harabakc Augur

    Surviving. What else am I going to stack? H Str? For 1 extra damage added to the top for 10 points?
  4. Bahdah Augur

  5. Stabbies Journeyman

    Rogues are supposed to be the best at melee dps, the counterpart of wizards. When we have access to mob's back, our dps should be above and beyond any other melee dps out there. That has not been the case for some time now. I expect rogues to be at par with Wizard dps on optimal conditions and at par with the next best melee dps class on none optimal conditions.
    I miss the early years of EQ when all classes were well defined in terms of their specialty. Warriors were the best at taking hits, clerics were the best at healing... etc. When SoE started messing with those class specialties is when everything started going downhill. SoE kowtowing to all the whiners who had dps envy, pull envy, kite envy, soloing envy also help created a snowball effect of constant game inbalance.
    Gloomfall likes this.
  6. Langya Augur

    DPS of a wizard eh? Berserkers should have that correlation. Rogues used to do useful things where as a berserker has nothing else to offer but dps.

    Most rogues are not vastly upset about robes out-dpsing us. Its Casterquest now, the pendulum swung the other direction so that is the way it is. A caster just has more bang for the buck and if you role a melee dps as a new toon right now, other than monk....you might be someone who likes fritter away time they could have spent on a robe or a monk and gotten something better by current standards. That or you are an optimist who hopes that the devs will acknowledge that there are some short comings. If you are playing a rogue or zerk right now, than you have for a while and have too much invested to just chuck it on roling a robe, hybrid class or whatever, although with granted AA it might get very tempting. Thus, I think most of us would find it acceptable to dps more than a monk at this point but otherwise be resigned to the fact that melee dps in general is not going to be in the same league as casters.
  7. Brogett Augur

    What other useful things do we do?

    Rogues certainly *used* to be the parallel of wizards, being the melee equivalent, however then zerkers arrived. I don't see why we should roll over and give them that roll.

    Think on it this way. Imagine SOE decide that they need another tank, and create the Marauder class. It doesn't do *anything* else other than tank, so they make it a decent tank and with time make it the best tank there is, stagnating warrior a little bit until the mitigation level matches paladins and shadowknights. Can you imagine the outcry? Do you think warriors wouldn't kick up merry hell? Of course they would! Now replace Marauder with berserker, warrior with rogue, and SK/Pally with monks (and at times maybe rangers/bst) and then you have the dps analog.

    Now this is all water under the bridge. They created berserkers and even though IMO it was a mistake it's done, they're here. So fine we can get along and even join forces in common goals that benefit both of us. But I'll never agree to them being #1 and us being #2. Even yes, but not that.
  8. Gloomfall Lorekeeper


    Completely agree with you on this one.
  9. Langya Augur

    I did use the phase "used to".

    Also, if rogues and zerkers are supposed to be dead even, then why have two classes that do in essence the same thing? The roleplay aspect? Racial choices? Fatties can't be rogues but they can be zerkers? I guess by default we do the same exact thing currently (only rogues do less of it), since rogue utility skills are worthless on raids and only SoS gets used to any degree grouping if you are not using our endo hogging pulling abilities. However, the skills, although worthless, are still considered part of the equation for balancing our class, correct? The usual give and take. Sure, a zerk uses a 2 hander and stacks different stats than a rogue, but the two classes are both pure melee, in chain, in direct contact with their foe. Not standing back and picking their nose and wiping the boogers on their robe while casting some spell. If rogues need to toss all our so called utility away in favor of doing just dps to be equal with zerkers and give the robes something else to look at in the rearview, would you all think that is a good trade? As in no more SoS amongst all the other stuff that we use just about every other 29th of February?

    I totally smell what you all are stepping in, but its not me you have to sell. I am just a peon nobody in this game and I don't even raid anymore. In my groups I am a big dps fish in a tiny pond. Its the Dev Team you have to convince and it might not be so hard, considering the current state of monks who were treated very generously. I really don't care if zerkers out dps me. THEY are the ones that should be giving the robes a run for their money because zerkers do absolutely nothing else well what so ever other than dps. We should be a close second and monks third.

    Why?

    The realist in me knows that even if it is crap, rogues still have some utility, even if it is just our traps or the succor or the mez. We don't need to go over all in the plus column for monks without their superior dps.
  10. Stabbies Journeyman

    Like I said, when SoE decided to start redistributing class specialties to different classes is when everything went downhill. When I created my rogue 14 years ago, I knew what she can/can't do and I was happy with it because all I wanted was to play a toon that does massive damage. Giving the rogue utilities was the biggest mistake SoE made because every time you give one class the abilities of another class then you have to compensate the other classes with other things, then next thing you know, you end up having to take some abilities away or nerf them into oblivion to cover up the mistake you did earlier. Over the years, the mistakes got so convoluted that it started affecting each classes' original roles. If their reasoning for throttling back rogue dps was because it's not fair to have utilities (slow,snare, pulling,, etc.) and high dps then they can take back all those utilites. I never wanted them in the first place.
  11. Dre. Altoholic

    I still think they should have just rolled the Berserker toolset into the Warrior class.

    My suggestions would be to give you guys some better "self-support" options for your DPS. Kind of like we see with Wizards - they really don't need any help to put up numbers.
  12. Gloomfall Lorekeeper


    "putting up number" can be rough at times.. though Rampage is pretty sick and it's not just limited to raid bosses. I was in Lunanyn the other night and my group pulled a named mob. The Melee AoE DoT it put out got me to 3% in the span it took for the cleric to cast a heal on me.. and it effectively kept me out of the fight. This is not an uncommon thing either.

    When a good Rampage happens in a raid it can easily one shot me. And I'm not undergeared or underskilled for it.

    On the other side of the coin Wizard and other casters get to sit back in fairly decent safety only having to worry about their threat management and their mana pool.

    I've said it before.. If I could simply waggle my daggers at the enemies back from the same ranks as Wizard and pull similar DPS.. I wouldn't be as ticked off as I am right now. As it is we have to deal with a ton of deadly situations.. often times being pushed out of melee range being rendered unable to fight because if we do go in to fight we die. And when we are able to stay in and fight our DPS numbers still don't approach the top.

    It's a real shame.
  13. frands481 Elder

    i'm pretty happy where i am as a rogue.some more defensive aas and i may or may not be golden. that said i am wearing voa cultural which is good when said and done for my level. the main issue of course is good gearing options with partial expansion release. tradeskilled is behind t1 in cotf because the expansion was released t1. sure it may become easy enough to save for current ldon style gear but you still must wait a bit. luckily rogue just isn't a class where waiting is as much of an issue as it is for tanks. the main issue will become tooth and nail for any higher tier gear added to cotf. with no level boosts aquiring may be brutal. i think maybe rogue basic ability is where it should be and all we need is aa and gear tho i'm not 100 so i can't say for certain.
  14. Langya Augur

    Passive AA that allows a chance to proc an ability similar to cleric TotD when we get close to dying, only it is a short duration, fixed amount rune that hopefully buys us enough to to get healed or back off.

    Of course there would need to be ranks that up the chances for a metric buttonne of AA.
  15. Myrdra_the_Trickster New Member

    Rogue lorewise, I'd like that almost dead 'proc' be something like... we take a hit of poison, and with our knowledge of the craft, take enough to 'fall dead' (FD) as a way of a last chance survival tactic. Maybe penalize that ability, sort of like shaman totem, by having 15-20 second stun debuff to keep you down (so fd classes won't grumble)
    Gloomfall likes this.
  16. Songsa Augur

    Do you see lots of heroic rogue? i don't see lots in server and very few questions about rogues from new/ returning players.
    That indicates a lot to me.
    Brogett and Gloomfall like this.
  17. Gloomfall Lorekeeper


    This. 100x This.

    You'll be seeing a lot of people coming in as Wizards, Necromancers, and Mages. You'll be seeing Rangers and Berserkers from time to time as well depending on preferences. I really hope they're tracking analytics on this.
  18. Brogett Augur

    It's an interesting thought, but not one I have any cold hard data on. Maybe a "/who all <class> 85 99" is a good proxy, but I would hope the devs have the raw data on how many of each class is getting made to be heroic.

    Edit, actually 90-99 is a better bet. Some will create wizards purely to be porters, but may not care enough to play them to level up to newer zones (especially if silver account). Similarly some may create rogues in order to have a SoS toon that can drag a corpse of their box army somewhere to rez it up and make getting to camp easier. Neither of those use cases demonstrate choosing the character based on their dps credentials.
  19. Songsa Augur

    Yea its not easy to make conclusions for sure, the lack of people posting about rogues is an indication that not many people care to play that character though, and honestly i can understand them.
    We used to be top character at one aspect of the game = dps, and people played rogues for that, now we are not bad but not better than other classes and we still have not many things to bring to the table. (awful tanking/solo/molo, nothing to bring to a group like buffs or special utility like track/ADPS etc...) add to that the difficulty to box a rogue with the positioning requirement and you have probably the reason why our class is not the first choice for heroic character.
  20. Brogett Augur

    It's pretty clear on AB anyway. Looking at levels 85-99 and excluding those in bazaar:

    Ber 6
    Pal 9
    Rog 10
    War 10
    Cleric 11
    Monk 12
    Enc 12
    Bst 15
    Ranger 15
    Bard 17
    Nec 18
    Wiz 20
    Druid 22
    SK 26
    Shm 29
    Mag 35

    Obviously it's not exhaustive nor error free, but the bias is obvious. Caster DPS >> melee DPS in desirability.