Thankfully, I can't think of any time I've run into a problem in group content, but I've recently started raided and have noticed a number of cheese tactics being used. So what do you do when your group or guild does whatever it takes to win, including cheese and possible exploits? Yo-yo tanking? Kiting everything when you've got twelve+ tanks, nine clerics, not to mention other priests? Gating or teleporting out to avoid killing adds or avoid dealing with kill mechanics? Dragons or npcs tanking? Again, I've only been raiding from t3 in RoF, but I understand the last two expansions have the easiest raids in Everquest's history... So why bother with the cheese to win? My guild is the only one raiding that fits my schedule. I've voiced my concerns to the raid strategist, but he just loves piling on cheese to win. Should my next step be calling him out? Are these cheese tactics just a norm for raiding and something I'll have to get used to?
Accept it or move on. You don't have to like it, but creating drama either publicly or behind the scenes (e.g. whisper campaigns, sowing discontent) are often the worst crimes a raider can commit in a guild.
The hard core raider is a thing of the past. There are a few out there. Some high end guilds still evolve to this raider type. Where did you hear these are some of the easiest raids? Maybe for a zerg guild that has the best gear? Perhaps. I find there are mechanics in current raids that contribute to wipes. Presently we are running 2-4 Clerics, 3-4 Druids, 2-3 shaman and feel challenged in new content. A good night is when we have one healer per group. We are not the #1 guild on our server and therefore are lucky to see every raid before a new xpac. If your in a guild that is plowing through content, count yourself lucky and enjoy what you paid for. The rest of us are only seeing half of what we paid for.
Make characters on as many servers as you have patience for and /lfguild there. When you find the right guild, 2500 SC for a server transfer will be the best SC you've ever spent. Let us know how it goes. Although, I'm not sure if NPC tanking is actually unintended.
Report them and since it would be cheesy not to tell them that you did let them know you did (as is posting on a public forum about it if that's not your main's name). I suspect any reservations you have about how they do things will be quickly resolved.
Call him out? It'll be your quick exit strategy from the guild you're in. You want things done the way YOU think they should be done, start your own guild and lead on!
Find a new guild. If you have to cheese events to win in this current incarnation of EQ...well, 'nuff said. I'm sure that there are plenty of guilds out there still that may coincide with your times. Lots of guilds say that they officially raid 3-5 days, however there just isn't enough current content to efficiently raid that many days. Saying that, I'm sure that there are a few that are due to roster challenges and such.
Since when is summon tanking cheese? Since when is kiting cheese? These are valid tactics that have been used for many years... Many of the "challenge" achievements require these tactics. Maybe it's because I started "hardcore" raiding when Underfoot was current content, but most of those raids required some combination of these to handle in appropriate gear even with perfect play. If the NPC is capable of tanking the event and it hasn't been nerfed, it must be intended. Why is this an issue to you?
OP, you have been drinking a bit too much of the super high end Koolaid. Probably much of it posted to these boards too. Most people would not go as far as to say that CotF is offering the easiest raids in history. That is waaaaay too subjective. Members of the top 5 guilds have a vast advantage over the norm. Perfect rosters that can be tailored to any situation. The most experience and technical kill in addition to still having that old school mentality towards raiding where there is no second best or putting it off until tomorrow. They can truthfully say that raid shave never been easier for them, but then again they are collectively more powerful than they have ever been as well too. Probably most of all as far as ease for them is they are destination guilds so they don't have to actively recruit and settle for whomever. More like vet, sort and purge. They can cherry pick and even go as far as to encourage current members to leave if someone more skilled becomes available. Most of the "rest" as far guilds that raid (as opposed to raiding guilds. There is a difference) is that they have to take who they can get to fill holes in the roster. There are always challenges as far as gear dilution, players being underskilled, under AAed and undergeared. Attention spans are not always spot on. People miss emotes, go afk at the wrong time and don't perform to their maximum output. The list goes on and it boils down to casual play which is what 99% of the player base is. Casual play is nothing new. Its the norm. There have always been lots of casuals and just a few hardcore elitists since day one. The hardcore have also been riding an exponential power curve since day one to the point where the hard core and the casual are no longer within viewing distance of each other. As a result casual guilds that raid sometimes have to get things done with vastly less panache and finesse. Hardly any of it breaks the rules, but yes....it could be higher up on the cheese factor. Either accept it for what it is due to your schedule, or quit raiding and focus on the group game while biding your time. Refine your play and level/gear up multiple characters because what you consider a main today might not be what any guild wants tomorrow. There are plenty of guilds that raid, but only 10 or so true raid guilds and the majority of them are East Coast USA time based. So you have to wait until the planets align where your schedule and their needs are in agreement.
I did not know there was only 1 allowed strat for every raid you had to follow, regardless of your raid make up.
There isn't. There are plenty of agendas, axes being ground and propaganda, however. Stuff such as pets tanking, class envy etc. Classes and guilds want to legitimize what they do by arguing that any strat that places less emphasis on what has been traditionally required to raid is a threat and will ping the dev team hard to undo whatever injustice has been wrought. Most of the time it really doesn't have any direct consequence to them since their roster is already perfect, but if <Gnoll Busters> uses a pet to tank on a raid because they lack tanking due to roster holes or under geared membership, then certain high end tanking classes will move to have pets tanking as a strategy crushed. Never mind if <Gnoll Busters> might have to disband or at least become a non entity as far as raids go. At the very least their melee are bored to tears throwing and using a bow for no dps what so ever... Why is it like that? Because these tanks want to be the only solution and constantly in demand. Same with the ultra high end wanting things to be just so and how it has always been. It keeps the apps coming in. Quality apps. Still,the game still has to be accessible and make money. Most of the high end is OK with that because they understand there are compromises to keep things moving forward, but there are always holdouts. They come here and complain.....
I didn't even know this was an "issue". I have never heard of anyone complain about it until this thread. Half the fun for me is messaging my friends in other guilds, servers, etc and seeing the differences in how we do some of the same raids. Granted most of the time the differences are rather small. We are each always " why the heck do you do that?! " to each other, followed by a " it works for us ".
Which is perfectly fine. Keep doing what you do. Thing is, the OP might have some seeds planted in their mind that there is a right way and a wrong way to beat raids. Much of it originates from people who seek mostly to protect their own self interests and not so much what is best for everyone. A win is a win. If you play within the rules than whats the big deal.
From OP: "Thankfully, I can't think of any time I've run into a problem in group content...." LOL, what planet have you been on, b/c it certainly is not Norrath. Sounds like you are already being that squeaky wheel and creating drama in your new guild. Nice going. Summon tanking and kiting and those others are mostly accepted tactics to beating events, has been for years. Regardless if they align with your pre conceived notions of what is right and wrong. I'd say either accept it or move to another guild. If you keep sending the raid leader tells telling him he's doing the raid wrong, I imagine you'll quickly be looking for another guild anyway. .
Having multiple ways to beat any given event is one of the best things everquest has ever had going for it.
Kiting is fine, if the devs don't want you to kite they can stop it easily. And some raids are made for it. Getting npc's to tank I have no idea. That raid makes no sense and the boss hits hard enough that letting the dragon take the hits almost makes sense, but it feels like the WK raid and the DH raid should have some explanation for what's going on.
The only way to get rid of the cheese touch, is by passing it on to someone else. So began the cheese touch frenzy, friend turned on friend. It was MADNESS.
DH is fine. But WK... I asked exactly that in the Beta thread and got no reply. Since the dragon automatically becomes the tank if you don't get into Galenth way, and the dragon is buffable and healable, it looks like this may be intended. Yeah, that's bad design IMO.
The dragon also used to hit you didn't it? And the prisons were attacking people, so it's possible it wasn't seen in beta and a flag wasn't set. Either way though I kind of like emotes explaining things if nothing else. All we get to find out in WK is that apparently the only motivation they have for attacking is so they can eat the dragon. [Mon Jan 27 20:55:01 2014] Guard Teclisin shouts 'To arms! We dine on dragon flesh, tonight!'
Thanks for the replies all. I appreciate the feedback and constructive criticism. Even laced with sarcasm. I guess I just haven't these common raid tactics before and they seem cheesy as hell to me, especially when they're not needed for the win. Sad to hear that everyone uses them, but that's my opinion vs the norm, I guess.
