All classes/races available, Random Loot, Luclin Start TLP

It would be cool to have all classes/races available at a Luclin start TLP. Not sure if coding wise thats even possible but I think it would be fun as hell.

Its possible but the devs are probably never going to do it, they see the additional classes and races as being part of their later expansions, so they are "expansion content" and are unlikely to change after reversing prior decisions on making them available earlier.

After Luclin which added Vah Shir and Beastlord, it was Frogloks with Ykesha, Drakkin with Serpent's Spine. I think Beserker were added between PoP and GoD 'cause I vaguely remember them being added and I left right before GoD launched, but that would be LDoN, no? There weren't any other new races or classes, were there?

I believe they were added in the same expansion the trolls moved from grobb to rivervale, eating all the jumjum and halflings and not a single halfling survived

F in chat for halflings

The Frogloks taking over Grobb was the pre-expansion event for Legacy of Ykesha.
Berserker player class was released with Gates of Discord.

I mean I'd love to see all of the classes considered as being "core" content to the game given that Berserkers were released with an expansion 18 years ago - Beastlords even longer at 20 years ago.

Considering they have been with EQ for the majority of EQ's existence now and yet they are still considered as just "expansion content" is to me just flat out disrespectful at this point.

To use the analogy of a Rock-Band:
It's like saying Ronnie Wood is just expansion content for the Rolling Stones & he is not & never will be core to the group.

The Rolling Stones band formed in 1962 & Ronnie didn't join until 1975 and were he still considered as just a session guitarist after being in the band for 47 years it would be considered very disrespectful, because it absolutely would be.

Beastlords & Berserkers well I think the devs are disrespecting them after they joined the band 20 & 18 years ago and we are all just expected to be fine with that.

It's long past time they should have been split from their expansions, and the same goes for most of the combinations, in fact I disagree 100% with tying classes to expansions - races I am totally fine with being tied to expansions, you can race change scroll later on so that's not a concern at all.

EQ has changed so much that P99 has an iron-clad claim to being more like the original trilogy than EQ is now, and yet its dev team clings to this outdated principle of maintaining the "integrity" of classes being expansion content when so much else of the game has drastically changed.

Keeping classes locked to their original expansions for some notion of maintaining the original feel of EQ is is a totally bogus argument on shaky ground, it hasn't been 2004 or 2001 for a very long time.

I refuse to believe they can go through every loot table, randomize it, and make everything free trade, but for some reason beastlords and berserkers on a TLP launch can't be done. That makes zero sense to me.

The argument that they are "expansion content" seems very weak. No one here is being shortchanged. I struggle to see any negative. Itemization? Lack of quests? They both have planar armor and epic quests, what's the problem? How many people would sub up to play their favorite class at the start of a TLP?

Who here would be against having these 2 classes in at launch, and why? I have yet to see any coherent argument besides certain local contrarians stating "X dev said 'no' one time, and I am incapable of independent thought so I agree"

Why luclin tho? I want my zerker running around guk with an executioners axe

BZK and BST are EQ, it is not an impossible task to implement them on launch of a TLP within classic. This task has already been done on servers. Classes should never be thought of as expansion material.

If this is the your angle then it would also be saying that each one of those expansion released 18 years ago is core to the game and the TLP servers should not be getting them in pieces over time. You can't just pick and choose which content from an expansion is core and should be released at the start of a TLP with no expansions.

It isn't a matter of picking and choosing which parts of a class that can be locked to players and which will be unlocked. And it shouldn't be hard to think that there will be complaints about not being able to complete epics and other quests for beastlords and berserkers if they got unlocked before their expansions. Just because something can be done doesn't mean that it is a good idea.

Yes, it has been done but only on servers that start with the expansion the class was released in unlocked.

So the sole reason no one should be able to play a class for 3 or 7 expansions on a tlp is because they cant complete there epic in kunark?

It has been done on emulators.

That is just one of the reasons and there are others as well.

What is done on a private server doesn't mean that the devs want to do it on the official servers. I don't think anyone has ever said that it can't be done just that it hasn't/wont be done because of various reasons.

What would these "various reasons" be, Waring_McMarrin?

I want to see Beastlords and Berserkers in the classic era. Other posters want to see Beastlords and Berserkers in the classic era. Beastlords and Berserkers in classic far outweighs any negatives, which anyone can produce.

Beastlords and Berserkers cannot complete their 1.0 epics alongside other classic in Kunark. People will still play the two classes.

Beastlords and Berserkers will not have a great item selection. People will still play the two classes.

Rogues stink in classic. People still play them.

Wizards are behind Mages on Live. People still play wizards.

SK's are loved by far more players than Paladins ever will be. People still play Paladins.

Beastlords are meh in Luclin. People still play Beastlords.

Several 1.0 epics are meh. People still complete them.

Make Poison is meh in classic. People still level it up.

You should explain to all of us what your "various reasons" are, so we can quickly apologize to you for even suggesting that this idea is worth pursuing.

I agree completely with everything else you said, and this you are trying to make as a small negative, but its like a very very very small negative. so many classic - velious and further items have been retroactively had bst and ber added to them that it is such a small issue. sky is the only place i can think that doesnt have quest items for those classes. fear has sets for both. inny items have these classes added to the correct racial items. so many weapons from classic/kunark zones have had bst/ber added. a quick search on eqitems shows that all the popular items that you would expect to be equipable by these classes are.

Ill add some more positives to having these classes in classic, just to further outweigh the tiny negatives.

- Makes 2handers useful in classic-pop. sure some sks use 2 handers when not tanking, but with 1hander ratios really close to 2hander all the way, its more of a luxury. and then pallies really should never...

- more grouping combinations, fairly obvious but more combinations is always better

- different raid groups due to what bst/ber bring to the table. do zerkers get the good bard groups? time would tell. How much does frenzy help them? Do they rip agro even from knights tanking?

- interesting to see ber damage this early, as we see it get better in omens, does it start out good? dip in pop? all that will be fun to see.

- interesting to see how strong a bst pet is in those zones and compared to classic/kunark weapons. they could very well do some good dps in classic like mages then fall off?

all of these are positives and will lead to more "new" things while playing the same game.

- and then the most obvious that people have said before is that those classes are some peoples favorites, and they should be able to play them from the start of any tlp, not only ones starting past luclin or god...

So that leaves us back to the sole reason of "they cant finish their epics" which to me and others posting here is a very minor issue. Pally epics just sit in the bag, same with sk if they decide to complete it, and by velious there are few classes that its still "bis" for. So again to me, very minor issue. But I really would like to hear some other reasons why its a bad idea other than just saying "various"

Just because people want to see beastlords and berserkers in the classic era doesn't mean that the developers agree with them. There are balance issues to consider as well as items and quests for those classes that are not available until expansions they got released in. Also just because you might be happy playing a class and missing out on things until the correct expansion unlocks doesn't mean that everyone agrees with you. I don't think it is hard to see that people will complain about the incomplete class if it was released before the expansion unlocks. Not to mention that it goes against the idea of a progression server in putting in new content that was not intended for the expansion in question.

It has been explained many times that there are parts of the classes that are incomplete and not balanced properly before the correct expansion is released and the devs have no incentive to release content in that state. Just because someone does something on a private server doesn't mean it should be done on the official progression servers.

I'm not sure the devs knew 100% how much of a run away success Mischief would be though they probably suspected. Does anyone think putting Bst and Ber in classic is going to repeat that lightning in a bottle and make this new server the highest population TLP they've ever had? Its not really a fair comparison to equate effort unlocking the classes with effort randomizing the loot each expansion. Most people aren't saying it "can't" be done, they are suggesting the juice is not worth the squeeze.

This game as a whole is not balanced. Look at rogues vs monks for classic. look at rangers in velious vs luclin. if zerkers do the least damage in classic, then we know it picks up for them down the road, if they do the most, then we know other classes catch them later anyway.

Quests not being complete. that is still your single arguement.

Not being able to complete a quest does not make an "incomplete class" that is a huge stretch that everyone can see right through.

the idea of Progression and starting from scratch with a new class are actually the opposites. and if we look at what new content there still is when these 2 classes come out. there is still raid targets added, aas added, zones added, items added, spells added, races added. I think the two times classes should be added being moved to the beginning are hardly as big a deal as any of the other things added to the progression of the game. People wont get to god and say "dang theres nothing to do because zerkers are already in the game..."

You are right, unlocking classes would be much easier and is a one and done versus having to look at loot tables for every expansion. Add 3-4 total spell vendors early and thats it. Items are changed and done, classes are already made and its been stated by jchan that they "could."

So then its the worth. People again and again across the forums say clones are boring, and now its been shown clear as day that a mischief did better than an old clone this past year. so do you build on mischief with one more twist? do you steer away from another phinny clone and give something fresh?

But that does not mean that the devs would want to add more things that are un balanced and incomplete to the game by adding in content that is tied to later expansions. Just as you have people complaining that they can't play the classes in a progression server before they would unlock you would also have people complaining about any issues with them if they got unlocked early. Really it is just a lose lose situation for the devs.