Should all raid DPS classes have equal raid DPS?

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Cicelee, Apr 21, 2022.

  1. Cicelee Augur

    Was reading the thread about hybrids requesting specializations to help with mana, which also talked about better mana returns for those classes. I thought about the impact on a raid, where more mana equals more damage which equals higher DPS. And right now, there are classes who do more DPS on a raid than others.

    My question and debate topic is- should everyone, given the same gear/AA/talent/etc do the same DPS on a raid? If I can do 1 million DPS on my mage, should I also do it on a wizard, necro, rogue, monk, berserker, ranger and beastlord?

    We all hear grumblings from raiders that this class.does too much, this class does too little. I get the feeling (and I could be wrong, hence the thread) that DPS classes want equality. Do they? I personally think we should not be equal- we should have some classes win a short time length parse, some should win a long time frame parse, and some should win a medium time frame parse. Now if that is true, obviously some classes are excelling at multiple stages and some are never winning a parse regardless of time (which is a different convention in and of itself).

    I remember that villain from The Incredibles who made a comment along the lines of "If all of us are super, then none of us will". If we all were equal, I don't know if that is a good idea...
  2. zleski Augur

    Betteridge's law of headlines applies. The answer is no.
    A_ranger001 likes this.
  3. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    Not even sure that's a worthy goal.

    Some parity - as in no one class is ridiculously more powerful than another class that does a very similar role when played to similar levels of skill is probably about as good as it should get.

    I also think every player has some internalised "DPS Hierarchy" which has classes with more variety of abilities, more tools, better secondary or even tertiary role options being slightly less powerful than classes with only a single or very limited role with minimal variety & tools.
  4. Nennius Curmudgeon

    No. While I would like to see paladins do more, alright some, DPS of note on the living. The caster classes really don't need their self-esteem to be weakened more than it already has been.
    Andarriel likes this.
  5. Slasher Augur

    No. You need to take into account the utility and other roles them classes have in and outside of raids. You can't just balance a class for what they offer a raid. We should have tiers Class A B C are in Tier 1 for raid dps, Class D E are in Tier 2 etc. Classes within each tier should be competitive with each other and low tiers with better support should be competitive with the tier above them.

    What we have now and for the last few years is 1 class WAY above everyone else.
    Skuz likes this.
  6. Cadira Augur

    I don't think anyone disagrees that your dps should be dependant on your total roles and utility that come with your class. The problem is, some classes with the sole purpose of dps on a raid are the most lackluster dps classes (wizards, couple others to smaller extents maybe) and you have some classes that bring both insane dps AND utility/adps to the raid.

    To be fair, eqs dps has become extremely convoluted and complex with all the variables added over the years it's a little harder to tweek a classes dps appropriately than it might sound.

    I can't determine if the devs just don't give a rats *** or....worse yet, don't even realize how their own game currently works, though.
    Skuz, Metanis and Barton like this.
  7. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    On the flip side, just because a class can bring benefit to a raid doesn't mean the raids are actually using it (either because of the raid design or the strategy to beat it) or that another class with better dps can't provide it.
    Ozon and Cadira like this.
  8. Knifen Augur

    If dps ever needs adjustment, the only way it should occur is to bring the lower dps class up to what it should/could be. Dont go about DPS adjustment by nerfing classes.
    Annastasya, Yomomma, Maedhros and 2 others like this.
  9. Barton The Mischievous

    IMO, No but the pure dps classes should be within 10-15ish % of each other unless the fight is special and favors a certain class and there should not be too many of those either.

    How and if the Devs could actually pull that off is another story.
  10. Arkanny Augur

    Wizards are so behind its not even funny, considering dps is the only thing we do!
    Andarriel, Yinla and Barton like this.
  11. Bigstomp Augur

    I think it should be simplified.
    Just make warriors the best DPS.
    Tyranthraxus and Hildegarn like this.
  12. Warpeace Augur

    No, just because they apparently don't understand that mana is intended to be a limiting resource.
  13. error Augur

    Studios with way bigger dev teams and bigger budgets have tried and even they can't balance all classes/builds in their games. Rather than aiming for perfect balance, they'd probably be better off just aiming for no specific class consistently underperforming in every encounter.
    Kaenneth and Metanis like this.
  14. uberkingkong Augur

    It already is like this, just need to learn to play your class.

    What should happen is, mobs actually being a tank to melee dps. Mobs actually resisting spell dps, disease on a diseased mob should not affect them. Fire on a fire mob should not affect them. Backstabbing, stabbing, certain melee dps on goo's, liquid/gas mobs, should not affect them.

    Change should not affect with minimal damage.

    From a roleplaying standpoint, this game is off. Could be better.

    Instead you have melee dps running around owning everything because they don't have to deal with, resist modifers.
  15. Metanis Bad Company

    I would settle for even the perception they were working on this issue. Too bad we don't have some sort of player advocate system that could lobby on our behalf. This kind of thing is much more important to players than 22-year-old mob body types.

    Sure, they're deathly afraid of upsetting the apple cart, but they could make tiny, incremental changes and see how they do. And they could do it in such a way as to reduce server calculation complexity.
  16. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    The fact that some classes can't reach the top of DPS parses is because no one knows how to play that class?
  17. Vumad Cape Wearer


    Yes and no.

    The following answer assumes similar quality armor, skill and aDPS.

    ZER and WIZ, both being burst classes, should be parsing similar, given similar mob immunities, etc.

    A WIZ and a NEC should parse based on the event type. NEC should out DPS WIZ on long events where they can stack DoTs, WIZ should out DPS NEC on short events with multiple mobs types. On an event with a boss and a bunch of adds, a WIZ and a NEC should parse evenly when averaged over the entire event time, where the NEC has done massive DPS to the boss and the WIZ has done massive DPS to the adds.

    Hybrids generally should not out DPS pure DPS classes that lack utility. As a general, MNK, ZER, ROG, WIZ should always be topping the parse except based on event type. Hybrid DPS classes with a lot more utility should be behind them, but not by a large margin. Example, WIZ should always out DPS a MAG, but only by a small margin. ROG should always out DPS a ranger, but by a similar margin. Maybe as an example and for easy math, say the target DPS for a WIZ is 1,000,000 and the target DPS for a MAG is 950,000. Close, but the WIZ has an advantage. Unfortunately however, MAG are often out DPSing WIZ and that's not right.



    One possible solution to correct wizard burst DPS is to massively boost their spell damage but make their spells proc a debuff like Tash's lingering cry, but it reduces DPS, stacking up to X amount of times. So the 1st cast the WIZ does full damage, the next 90%, then 80%, etc. Those numbers are just random and would need a lot of tuning. The simple concept however is that WIZ would have the most absolute insane burst DPS in the game but suffer from fatigue. Maybe like 100%, 99%, 98%, 95%, 90%, etc until they flatline at like 50% (but remember I suggested they get a massive boost so 50% might be pretty close to where they are now).
  18. Windance Augur

    I think all raid DPS classes SHOULD be capable of roughly the same DPS.

    When a DPS class is underperforming to the point they are being excluded from raids because other classes are filling that role ... there is a problem.

    The bigger issue I have is the variation in skill needed to get the most out of the various DPS classes.
  19. Waring_McMarrin Augur


    Why would you expect a wizard to out dps a necro on an event where a necro can get dps running on multiple mobs at once and a wizard would be focusing on a single mob?
    Tropi likes this.
  20. Vumad Cape Wearer


    Um, because those mobs die before the DoTs ramp up or the Wizard is AEing? Not sure why you would expect a NEC to out DPS a Wizard in such a situation. The NEC can currently out DPS the wizard, but the OP asked a philosophical question, and I answered it. Wizards need love.