Cya Everquest

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Elemental, Apr 4, 2022.

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  1. Jumbur Improved Familiar

    This is not allowed as it automates positioning during combat, without you having to control it yourself.

    I S Boxer basically lets you use hotkeys for windows not in the foreground, and has some clever picture-in-picture tricks that lets you have hotbars(or whatever part of the window you want) from different accounts shown onscreen at the same time. AFAIK, That is pretty much it. You still have to micromanage everything yourself, with the same limitations as the rest of us.
    I S boxer doesn't have any EQ-specific QOL-features afaik. Instead, think of it as tool for windows-management.
  2. Chikkin Augur

    Makes sense, but part of the debate some have had in here and in the other threads the last few days is back to this "grey area" thing. It was my understanding after reading some yesterday, that key-broadcasting is allowed on some servers. If this is true, and again, I'm not emotionally charged on the issue as I haven't spent any money to open accounts, or used it in the past etc etc, how is key-broadcasting to control multiple windows from 1 window different than any kind of mob placement? which is also essentially programming/scripting a program to press buttons for you.

    The posts you linked in your first reply, I read yesterday. I think I'm clear on what is "officially been announced" but at the same time, there does seem to be some "lee way" on what they're really watching for, or going after. Edit: In references to the official stances. I respect them, and I am really pro-EQ anything as it was such a big part of my life many years ago, and just by that notion alone don't want to ever be one of the "problem players" but I honestly would not be surprised if the rules evolve some on what is and isn't allowed. -- No different than being able to play Windowed -- Were you around in the early days when WinEQ or whatever it was called, wasn't allowed? Later Everquest of course came out with windowed mode. -- But that kind of QoL stuff at one point was "bad" "illegal" "banneable" but it evolved.
  3. Bernel Augur

    Some of the issues in EQ are fundamental problems that really should be fixed in game rather than through 3rd-party add ons. And this is especially true here since the most popular one costs money. It's one thing to use a free add on for a small QoL enhancement, but it's another if the add on is essentially a requirement to be able to play the game. For many people, ISB isn't a QoL enhancement, it's an essential tool. Without it, they would not be able to play since they couldn't do it all with just alt-tab.

    As we are having these discussions, it's clear to me that the difficulty of current content is tuned to boxed groups. It seems like almost all group and raid content is being done with some boxes thrown in. Without boxes, group content would be impossible and raids would not have enough toons. There aren't enough real people to complete content. How often are raids completed where there are no boxes? That is, where the number of toons in the raid equals the number of players? I'm guessing just a tiny percentage. If the game as it exists today essentially cannot be played without boxing, then EQ should make changes so that the players don't need add ons. The EQ client alone should be all that is needed.
  4. Chikkin Augur

    You're right. But man, that would be so hard to go back and balance/fix I think? At times ESO seems to easy, but somehow it was still very fun. But didn't have that nerve-wracking feeling of stepping into an old dungeon and nobody else is in the zone, and even the first pull could wipe you (if you didn't have your bot team ready to go) ..... but by the same token, I recently did New World 24/7 from release to about February... and that was like most MMO these days where you can solo most content, just not the zones marked as elite/epic etc etc etc. --

    So how could EQ change this? Maybe a 2nd merc after all? I really don't know.
  5. I_Love_My_Bandwidth Mercslayer

    I've said it all along, this is a people problem - not a game problem. EverQuest has survived because of it's connection to many people's first MMO nostalgia. I tend to agree that EQ has become solo-oriented and maybe its time for Darkpaw to own this fact and lean into it. Develop in-game boxing software and automation. Limit it to one group. Rebuild the raid tool and create new expansion content for 1-3 group squads.

    Also allow hiring of up to 5 mercenaries. Merc AI should evolve. Mercs need to be smarter. Then over the next few years add another merc class per year.

    It's increasingly apparent this is what the majority of EQ players want. Why won't Darkpaw move to capitalize on this?
    Imforfreedom likes this.
  6. Burdi Augur

    Apple and google made a huge success by selling app in their store.
    We could think about a system where you can propose a mod addon in DPG store provided it meet some criteria.
  7. Jumbur Improved Familiar

    I actually disagree with that premise. Im convinced that the game is NOT tuned towards boxing, but tuned towards real groups.
    Regarding boxes on raids, maybe the problem isn't that there are too few people per server, but that there are too many raid-guilds per server. Maybe we are not supposed to pretend we can manage a raidguild with only 30 players...Maybe guild merges is the real answer...
    Bernel likes this.
  8. Chikkin Augur

    I want to make sure I understand both you, and Bernel. I may not be fully following.

    Do we agree that the game today is still tuned/made as it was originally, and that everything (at least at the beginning) is to be tackled by a group. Even kiting, reverse-kiting/fear-kitting, quadding, and all that stuff was frowned upon by people such as even Absor many years ago. -- I remember in the 1999/2000 era, that a necro could fake death-dot and clear Froglok Lord room in Guk all by himself was a huge "outrage" leading to calls for Necro-nerfs etc. -- I'm not looking to rehash that conversation, at the time, it probably was overpowered. Also at the time, it probably really did suck that a warrior could not attack much of anything and and be safe, unless they had a SoW to run away if things went bad or they got an add. These people would then watch Druids do their kiting. --- I think code was even put in to make dots break sooner, or damage less as minor anti-kite methods.

    This kind of stuff of course goes 'way back' but that's why I was a bard my entire hardcore EQ 15 hours a day batphone guild life in 99-2002. Bard didn't need to ask anybody for anything, and this was before swarm/charm kiting or whatever that took off for bards later. I was all about the group game, buit at least I didn't have to ask for a sow, an invis, or an ITU, etc to get around. That fit my play style.

    I'm being wordy and flirting with off-topic again, sorry for that.

    My point was, the game was made for everything to be group-required. Some exceptions are like the first 5-10 levels or whatever. I think also later, light blue mobs were supposed to be soloable? I don't really know, I always saw light blue mobs as EQ's way of saying ok, it's not really green if it can kill you, is it.

    ----- So with all that being said, the game is still made this way right? I'm out of touch with the newest of zones and raids.


    To get around this, because EQ's playerbase is no longer teenagers, high schoolers, college students, and 20-somethings without kids and 50-80 hour a week jobs. (as the majority), many people, such as myself, who are now 20 years older, 23 years older I guess now.... . we want to "work smarter, not harder" and "don't have time to sit around and always be able to do the group game or dependable for others" -- again, not everybody, just a large part of the player base.

    Making mercs was a HUGE step in the right direction for these types of players, and helped with the issue of unused zones, and helped people get leveled up, and all the many things that Mercs brought to the table. --- it was also a shock to me at the time they were announced because it seemed to show a move in a completely different directoin than the EQ of old.

    Grant it, they didn't have much of a choice as the game gets older, and is top-heavy.



    --- now we are what... 15 years since mercs came out, and many years since the first time AA was autogranted and other solo-friendly or "catch-up" type things... so perhaps it's time for another major step towards "quality of life" or "things to help the solo player" ... but leave the Raid Game the way it is.

    --- For raids, is there a problem there as well with population and classes? If so, the only thing that will fix that is server merges correct? or an easier fix, is ya Guild merges if that isn't already happening. That's something the community can fix on it's own. -- The issues we're talking about here, is ways to improve the game for the player who isn't doing Raid-required aka real-people required content.

    We're talking about ways to make it easier for the solo or small group player to do on their own, or get caught up, or when their guild is not raiding or mostly offline.
    Jumbur likes this.
  9. Bernel Augur

    Yes, I would agree with your clarification. The game is tuned as if the group content was being done by full groups of real people, and the same with raids. I don't really think it's a problem if raids have to box since raids are all about coming up with creative solutions to difficult problems. If boxing is the way to do that, no problem. But the group game is where it seems like there should be some changes to reflect the reality that there's one person doing the group content, not 5-6 people.

    This isn't a problem when an expansion is the latest expansion, as there are tons of people doing the content. If you need multiple people to complete some mission, there will likely be many people also wanting to complete that mission. PUGs are relatively easy to form. People may not like PUGs for various reasons, but they are feasible at that time. But later when that expansion is the 2nd or 3rd expansion back, there aren't multiple people trying to do that group content. You have to do it on your own. That's where the original difficulty becomes problematic. A solo player has to box in these older expansions because there aren't enough real players to work with. So I don't necessarily think it's a problem that new expansions are tuned for full groups of real players, but I do think it's a problem that they maintain that level of difficulty years later when they are virtually deserted.
    Jumbur likes this.
  10. Chikkin Augur

    I agree with your basic premise.

    Since they are able to do different mob and zone modifiers, like hotzones/zem, and the MofM stuff they have implemented.

    What if they could do some kind of scaling player buff/mob debuff that helps.

    For example, the biggest buff/debuff would be the oldest content, and as you get to new and new stuff, this would grow to be less and less. A gradual change that gets someone leveled up, and gets them trained up on their class, they see the zones, they learn basic fundamentals and mechanics and slowly as they get closer to where the latest expansion or real people are, the less this buff/debuff helps. So gradual that it's definitely noticeable, but towards the point where it's no longer even there, the player is geared up, and ready for a real group.


    As gradual as the scaling AA exp is after the autogrant.

    Is there some way this could work? It would be done by zone, they could throw this up on Test or a live single server first.

    It wouldn't necessarily be like 1 finger death punch a mob in sol-b at level 35 etc, but either zone/mob based debuffs, or Player Level (and not zone related) buffs somehow, that not only is the solo game and lower level game even easier, but by the time you're like I don't know. Lvl 80, or 90, you at least need a merc and some decent gear, and smarter pulls etc. I really don't know.


    But some kind of something that has zero affect on the latest expansions, the newest zones, the last 10 levels of the game (whatever the cap is right now ... 120 or 125?) .. and zero effect on any raids in the last XX amount of expansions.



    --- This is somewhat on topic in my opinion, there is like 3-5 different threads all talking about different issues, or problems, or solutions to help all the people who are NOT end-game ready and are basically forced to play alone, or wait for a TLP (and with the TLP not be late, or login too little, or be left behind).. -- it may help the player population.



    I really don't know, I'm not a dev for a reason. :D
    Jumbur likes this.
  11. Chikkin Augur

    I'm not saying I disagree, but are we sure that this has changed? There seems to be debate even on whether it has changed. People going in circles about Rizlona, about ISB being allowed or not allowed, and in circles about recently getting banned in January even though they didn't do the evil illegal stuff, just the harmless key broadcasting or whatever. -- a poor paraphrase of everything I've read here in the last 24 hours.


    As you can tell, I'm obviously not anti 3rd-party program or add-on, but I am anti-cheating. Where that line is depends, and is being discussed, with part of my point being that it slowly changes/evolves/etc. (the line between was is and is not legal).

    But with that disclaimer, if you can make a character do anything in the game without having THAT window loaded up to do it. Which I'm understanding is with some awesome overlay/picture in picture stuff, so you "are clicking the real stuff" isn't that still a nice advantage over not having the program? -- now we don't have to call that automated. I do understand what auto clicking, programmable keyboards, detailed scripts and all that means, but if you can make a 2nd or 3rd box be controlled the same way you control a merc with "hotkeys" in this case the picture in picture stuff, then ... ?

    I hope I'm making sense. There seems to be a difference to some people, no difference to others, some see a difference and are ok with some things, others are not ok with anything that doesn't come installed in the eq.exe -- Mercs are "installed" by DPG so they are ok, bots/boxes controlled through picture in picture or key broadcasting does not come installed, and while doing basically the exact same thing and making your box a "merc" ... it is a 3rd party program, so it gives an advantage since it's not baked in. -- that seems to be the only difference to me here.

    I guess an argument can be made for dps-parsers being "illegal" too, but that would be silly.
  12. Benito EQ player since 2001.

    The claim that Daybreak changes or has changed the rules hinges on hearsay and anecdotal evidence that people who purely run ISB are getting suspended. (As if we should trust internet claims hook-line-and-sinker and bad actors won’t do anything to promote their self-interest).

    This is an attempt to muddy the waters. It can also be an attempt to impose relativistic arguments especially since the “partial automation” argument is failing on its merits.

    The pro-automation/pro-cheat crowds always seeks to obfuscate, equivocate, conflate, and convolute.

    I am not referring to any specific poster but the trend in the conversation. You can be a useful fool for the pro-cheat side.
  13. MasterMagnus The Oracle of AllHigh

    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/what-constitutes-as-cheating.281242/

    The official rules as to cheating were updated in the above link March 2 2022 (refer to the full rules there as well as the EULA, both now apply to all players).

    This part:
    Changes the implications of Key Broadcasting and Key Repeating which were previously allowed, with supporting dev comment, which was the closest to a statement we had previously.
    Bardy McFly likes this.
  14. Chikkin Augur

    Ok, so the rules 100% did change, that part was added? There seemed to be confusion or disagreement yesterday on if the rules had (ever) changed.
  15. Bardy McFly Augur

    Yep, that's the part I had never seen before. That completely changes their stance.
  16. Tarvas Redwall of Coirnav, now Drinal

    Broadcasting a keystroke doesn't automate anything. The key must be pressed to do a action and it only does that one action (cast a single spell, run a single hotkey, etc). This is different from people running automation programs who just click a button and the characters run their script until disabled.
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  17. Chikkin Augur

    Ya for me Benito, there isn't anything to discuss on cheaters to me. Screw people who cheat.

    I am all about an open discussion on ways to improve Everquest in 2022 however. Do you have any particular ideas on things that could be looked at, or implemented to improve the solo experience, or low level, in a 23 year old game that is top heavy -- thus possibly improving the population and bringing more back for longer periods of time?


    While the topic is called "later eq" and the guy is mad and cancelling his accounts, it seemed to evolve on the discussion of rule changing. Lets say, you're 100% right, the rules didn't change, or even if they did or did not, there is no place where ISB is allowed.

    Sure, ok. What do you suggest?
    Nennius likes this.
  18. Benito EQ player since 2001.


    Quoted for truth.
  19. Benito EQ player since 2001.


    I am saying the pro-cheat side wants to conflate ISB with the other software.

    The argument that ISB is "no longer allowed" hinges on hearsay reports that people who purely use ISB are getting suspended. Again, this assumes the veracity of claims from possible bad actors who are doing everything in their power to defend their self-interest of automated play.
    Khat_Nip likes this.
  20. Tarvas Redwall of Coirnav, now Drinal

    I did not see anything on the ISB discord about people getting suspended from EQ for utilizing that program. Not everyone who has the program subscribed to that discord channel or even knows it exist though.
    Benito likes this.
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