Bazaar scammers

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Dadbod, Oct 21, 2021.

  1. Fell Augur

    It always amazes me the number of people -- people with Internet access -- who believe things that ten seconds of Internet research easily demonstrate to be false.

    Theft by deception.
    A person commits theft if he obtains property of another by deception. A person deceives if he intentionally:
    (1) Creates or reinforces a false impression, including false impressions as to law, value, intention, or other state of mind....or,
    (2) Prevents another from acquiring information which would affect his judgment of a transaction; or,
    (3) Fails to correct a false impression which the deceiver previously created or reinforced, or which the deceiver knows to be influencing another....

    Easy one. No. The salient factor is not setting a below-market price, but rather actions taken with the intent to confuse, mislead, or deceive a buyer. There have been sale contracts invalidated even though the terms were clearly disclosed in writing, simply because some of those terms were printed in too small a font -- so-called boilerplate challenges. Formatting a bazaar price in an extremely odd manner with no other intent than to confuse a buyer certainly qualifies.
  2. Dono27 Journeyman

    Just put some damn commas in the game
  3. Stymie Pendragon

    I was agreeing with you and trying to play on your joke at the same time. Humor appears to allude me here lately.

    In other words, I was just trying to make a funny that obviously bombed:)
  4. Cicelee Augur

    So your issue is 4199 plat. So if Kronos go for 40k and someone creates a barter wanting to buy Krono for 4200 plat, you are good?
  5. Fell Augur

    No. Nice strawman argument, however.
  6. Cicelee Augur

    I am trying to understand the difference between me creating a barter on live to buy a Krono at 250k that generally sells for 2-2.3 million.... and someone on TLP who creates a barter looking to buy a Krono for 4200 plat when they generally sell for 40k.

    You say I am not scamming, but the other person is. You also say that 4199 is not the problem. I am starting to get the feeling that you got burnt by this and are angry and want to blame others for your mistake. Hopefully I am wrong and you can why one scenario is a scam and the other is not.
  7. Ravanta Suffer Augur

    The interface is terrible at large integers. I'm sure we would all agree on that.

    Bazaar trolls and even on occasion in person trolls have taken advantage of this. I've only personally had someone try it on me once, but a few years ago on Xegony someone tried to buy a krono from me for 2.2m plat. They went linkdead after they put the plat in the trade window, and came back.

    When they came back to the game they sat there for a minute or two before finally putting plat in the trade window, and sure enough, it was 220k. I put a krono in the window and they pressed trade, while I didn't. I just waited. They sat there for 5 minutes before finally saying something, and I asked for the rest of the platinum.

    "Oh, sorry."

    Troll has cancelled the trade.

    All we are asking for, is a better interface with large amounts of currency.
    Stymie likes this.
  8. Warpeace Augur

    The issue is Everquest's UI and how it displays. The lack of commas or even periods to indicate values is a huge part of the problem.
    Stymie likes this.
  9. Fell Augur

    Sigh, let's try this again. There are two parties to every transaction. If Party A is confused or ignorant of some of the terms of that transaction, then (with a few limited technical exceptions I've previously mentioned) that transaction is invalid. This is true regardless of the actions or intentions of Party B.

    If, however, Party A's state of mind is the result of intentional actions by Party B, the transaction is not only invalid, but a crime has occurred. The specific example I cited was advertising a price of 400000p, then changing it to 40000p immediately before the transaction is consummated. The OP cited an example of someone including random amounts of gold and silver in a price, merely to cause the perception of the price being larger than it was. It doesn't matter whether you personally would be confused or not by that formatting. What matters is what actually occurs within the transaction. If Party A was confused, and Party B intended to confuse, it's a criminal act. Period.

    No, I merely believe that if one clearly and distinctly communicates a fact to someone else, they will eventually grasp it.
  10. Cicelee Augur

    If someone does not understand the difference between 40000 and 4199 9 9 9.... that is on them.

    I don't think you are grasping that. But continue to play FQ lawyer for all of us. At the very least, it is hilarious how much passion and energy you are using to try and convince others of a "scam" when the price hasn't changed at all. But you do you, we will continue to chuckle IRL.
  11. Zanarnar Augur

    I think we can all admit its seriously do*che-baggy behavior. EQ has always had jerks playing it who try to take advantage of others in various ways. This is no different.

    Yes it sucks that the game doesn't format numbers better.
    Yes it sucks that some people suck, and try to take advantage of that.

    That said, its also on the other person to double check, or even triple check the transaction.
    Always assume the other person has malicious intents.. make sure its the right item, not just one that shares an icon, make sure its the right plat count. Look again if it seems "too good to be true".

    Common sense helps a bit too.. noone is going to setup a buy line for Krono at 49K when the going rate is 42K. That's not even reasonably a typo; that's someone playing on your greed to scam you. (because it'll be 4900P 9G 9S 9C and NOT 49,000P)

    Rule of thumb, if you see ?G ?S ?C after someone's krono buy line, its a scam.
  12. Cicelee Augur

    Yes it is shady dee bag behavior. But it is not a scam, because the actual price is listed. The buyer read it wrong.

    Scams happened in EC tunnel when someone back in the day would sell a Yak or FBSS, someone came to them with plat, the seller said "Give me plat and I will log onto my other toon and give you item", plat was exchanged, the other toon never logged in. That is a scam.

    But purposely having a lower price than retail with extra gold/silver/copper is not a scam.
  13. Fell Augur

    In the past decade in my state alone (NY), courts have voided a large number of contracts, because though the actual price was listed, and listed accurately, it was printed in too small a font, or even because it was printed in a color that didn't contrast well enough against the background. California is even more stringent -- they regularly bring deceptive pricing suits against companies who clearly advertised an item sale price, without having first offered the item at a higher price for a lengthy enough period to satisfy state prosecutors. And federal courts have invalidated electronic/online contracts that were clear and unambiguous, simply because the terms were displayed in a manner that made buyers unlikely to actually read them.

    The law is clear. If you attempt to confuse someone in a financial transaction, and you succeed, you are committing a crime. And no amount of your "giggling and chuckling IRL" will change that.
  14. Randomized Augur


    Your illiteracy is not a deception on my end.

    Someone posts an item for sale for 50p because that's what the item is worth to them. Me posting it for 50g because that's what it's worth to me is not deception. Because you cannot read or differentiate between values is not deception. How am I to know what you are or are not capable of? I'm not.

    I post my price. If you're okay with it, you accept it. If not, you don't. There is no exchange, there is no play on words, there are no:
    (1) Creates or reinforces a false impression, including false impressions as to law, value, intention, or other state of mind.

    Nor does it:
    (2) Prevents another from acquiring information which would affect his judgment of a transaction
    That would be your own illiteracy or lack of knowledge. That's not my fault. And setting a price for all to see and agree upon on their own behalf does not mean I:

    (3) Fails to correct a false impression which the deceiver previously created or reinforced, or which the deceiver knows to be influencing another...

    This is what I'm willing to pay/buy the item for, take it or leave it. Anything after posted price is all on you.

    Quick edit: It's Theft BY Deception. That is not the same as Theft = Deception. Y by X is no Y = X.

    Transportation by plane does not make plane = car.
  15. suinegEQ Elder

    The only scam here is the one Fell is perpetrating that this is a thing to be discussed.
  16. Fell Augur

    Who said it was? My argument has nothing whatsover to do with your statement; either you didn't read or comprehend my post, or you're simply trolling. Either way, please feel free to continue arguing the earth is flat and JFK was assassinated by the CIA; this is the Internet, after all.

    Despite the rather muddled attempt at symbolic logic, the above system may be true in general, but is certainly false in this particular context. If deception results in a sale of an item at a below-market price, it is indisputably theft by deception: a criminal act.
  17. Mr Blue Sky Elder

    My last post was removed.

    Anyhow it's pretty clear deception, trying to fool the seller into selling Krono for a 10 times lower Platinum price than what they could get. So if you brought Krono using $$ from DPG website you might accidently sell them, for way less.
    These forums will always be full of bot users/scammers dregs of Everquest as they try to justify their actions. I'm guessing they would check here more than the average player.

    Being as Krono is a real life cash product this would be massively annoying to spend actual money and then be left with users not necessarily players. On this forum, an OFFICIAL DBG site openly saying they laugh at this type of stuff.
    I'd like to believe that to improve customer gaming experience and just in general DBG would address these issues on their game ...would something permanent which shows the average price of a Krono in Platinum the bazaar/barter box be possible?
    Then a message saying you are selling below the average price? really not sure on that though, i hate pop ups.
  18. Randomized Augur

    You did.

    They're both formatted at 50. And apparently someone's illiteracy and incapability to differentiate means I'm committing a crime. According to you.

    Listing a price that everyone can see, and it is up to them to determine if that price is worthwhile is not. That is not theft. The price was set, the price was agreed upon by both parties by me setting the price and them accepting the price. The transition was made. There is no deception. Again, your lack of awareness and/or illiteracy is not a deception on my end.

    As for your friend in your quote:


    This was an in character transaction? As in through the trade window? Your friend did not verify that the amount was correct before hitting trade? I'm just curious because unless I'm giving something away for free/charity, I'm the last one to hit trade so I can look over everything.

    You do not have to accept the paraphrased version of a contract from a car dealership before signing your name. You can read it word for word yourself, or make the dealer do so before signing. But once your signature is on the contract, it shows that you have agreed to it and there's not much you can do about it (few cases have been made against this, but for the most part it's "sorry your name is there, you agreed to it, you're SoL my friend" ).

    This would be no different. Every time something enters the trade window, it cancels your action of hitting "trade" and you have to do it over again. So either the plat was put up first and your friend didn't verify that it was the correct amount and accepted the trade, or.....he didn't verify that the amount was correct and accepted the trade meaning he agreed to the price.

    If I sell you something for $200, and you try to hand me a single $20...the transaction is not going through
  19. ruhroh New Member

    Yep had some scumbag saddle up right next to my buyer the other night and tried to scam match my prices. Moved away and kept my customers safe, since dev team will not.
  20. Fell Augur

    If this were true, the court system would have little to do. The majority of court time in the US (the overwhelming majority in federal courts) is occupied with civil cases, not criminal, typically contract challenges. Auto sale contracts are frequently challenged and invalidated, despite the fact that "your name is on there" in all such cases. The most common such complaint is that one or more terms of the sale were presented in a confusing or ambiguous manner. Countless examples can be found by anyone with LexisNexis access, or even a simple Internet search. Why wallow in ignorance?

    How many times are you going to misrepresentate my statements in an attempt to make your case? A price of 50p isn't meant to be intentionally confusing. Formatting a price of 41999p, plus random amounts of gold, silver, and copper, for no other intent than to confuse is a different matter. Once again: it doesn't matter that you believe -- quite possibly correctly -- that most people wouldn't be confused by that formatting. Legally, what matters is what happens within the transaction itself. If that attempt to confuse results in even one person mistakenly passing up offers from other vendors for ten times the price, then all the elements of the crime of theft by deception are present, and a crime has occurred.