Please adjust bard songs

Bards are incredibly good, and incredibly fun to play, right up until the hole opens up and all of the things that made them fun and great no longer work. Charm and mez need to work on the mobs that you fight in the hole. Unless something has changed since I last played, there is a cap on the songs available.

The last TLP I played on I mained a bard, and I had probably the most fun I've ever had in EQ right up through lower guk. I almost always pulled, and when you do that, you really need for your CC and charms to work, especially the CC. Having those two things gutted turns this class into an AFK buff bot.

This is such a stunning and jarring change to bards play style, it has to be an oversight. Bards have a certain skill set, and you take away a huge chunk of it at the end of the expansion.

It seems to me when the hole was first introduced, they just plain forgot to adjust the song list, and it's been that way ever since. It's hard to imagine that A. It's intended, and B. It's gone on for as long as it has.

C'mon, fix bard songs, all you have to do is change the level cap for mobs effected on the last charm and mez songs.

Classic isn't an expansion, check mate.

Also plz let Ogres be bards

and revert Bard AoE back to the original way it was.

ugh no

Level caps on spells and songs were added years after Classic release. The songs in question were level capped in April 2005, 5 years after The Hole was released.

Even if you had pre-level-capped charm songs, they would not work in The Hole because most mobs in there are highly magic resistant and often (entirely?) flagged no-charm. Even in 2000, a bard could not charm in there.

That being said, that particular level cap has long been one of the many rude nerfs to bard songs, impacting levels 51-69 (Kunark to OoW). It's a long painful gap in bard charm ability. Kunark, Velious, or SoL (how about ancient charm?) needs to offer a charm song and Call of the Banshee needs a higher level cap in PoP.

Charm is one thing, but the CC is flat out ridiculous. There is no reasons anyone can give me that bard CC should be completely removed at one point in the game..... it's a very important part of your tool set, and without it you aren't even a bad chanter.

This cannot possibly be intentional, even if it's been around a long time.

Bards definitely get the short end of the cc stick in late classic.

Fortunately, it ends fairly quick and there are no aa to grind. Just look at it like an opportunity to practice charm.

Now, fixing item classic clicks breaking melody...

The Hole as a zone doesn't pertain to bards specifically. That one is a Classic raid level zone with raid trash mobs. It's like Fear, Hate, and Sky. It's supposed to be very hard and very rewarding for those who can handle it in era.

The Hole is simply a place where most forms of CC are ineffective by design. That means yes it is intentional there, even against enchanters.

Using current song levels, Classic Bard CC begins with Calm(8), then Faction(11), Mez(15), Slow(20), Snare(23), Fear(26), and finally Charm(27). As you can see, charm is the last (but not the least) abilitiy a bard gets in their (1 to 50) toolbox.They all work fine in zones where they are designed to work. The Hole has never been such a place.

Let Halflings be Bards!!!

If you ever see a Bard wearing Visage of the Brute you would never want an Ogre bard. It's really really bad, halflings are pretty bad too

and here we go with bard charm thread..........whats next UNDEAD Necro Charm?

Heck Yea!

Bards need love. Take some of that OP chanter charm and toss it on Bard charm and cc.

The no-mez periods in early expansions are definitely some of my least favorite. I've never understood why that exists at all. Luclin fixes it, so I never had to deal with it on Selos thankfully, but not looking forward to that period in classic/Kunark where you can't do for a bit at all. Especially when I'm way too lazy to lull and just prefer to pull it all and mez it.

The Hole was changed on August 26, 2003.

Seems to be some misinformation in this thread:

I am quite certain level caps existed when I was playing on my Bard in 2000 and 2001. And P99 uses the level caps, which is attempting to emulate any experience way earlier than 2005.

I can't speak to how the Hole was originally, but Bards and Enchanters have no serious issues charming there now. I spent plenty of time there in Classic on Mangler, and standard practice for Enchanters is to charm a golem and then use it as primary group DPS and main tank. And charm is the only viable CC Bards have in the Hole, as they have the exact same level cap at Classic. I don't think Charm is a problem for Bards in Classic; it's the best it ever gets and is easily their best feature in this era!

Enchanter AE mez works just fine in the Hole, and Enchanters are almost essential for CC in the zone. This is the area where the OP is right on target. It is baffling that Bard CC caps out at level 45 in Classic. Juggling single target mez with a short duration is already a challenge that takes up most of the Bards resources; there's no reason to simply make it impossible. What's worse is the problem persists throughout Kunark and Velious, with plenty of zones where Bards just can't really CC at all.

I disagree The Hole is a Classic raid level zone; perhaps that was true in the past, but now it is primarily a grouping zone that gives great XP and solid loot. Compared to Hate, for example, the mobs are way easier and consequently the zone gives much better XP.

Contemporaneous Allah discussions and my own experience at the time (circa 2000). What time frame are you talking about?

I don't think that's correct. The main charm mob is the rock golem. It's a beast. I don't think there are any mobs, other than named, that can't be charmed. Perhaps I'm forgetting, but rats, undead, elementals, golems, are all charmable. Perhaps you are thinking of The Hole 1.0.

Git Gud

Why charm when you could be pulling nonstop mobs for your Hole group? Even faster than Monks, But if you absolutely insist on charming, just charm a rock golem or an elemental capturer.

It is CC; Bards can't just click 1 button and mez everything around them. Not every group has an enchanter. Your post leads me to believe you have no idea how Bard charm works.