State of tradeskills in the game

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Fian, Feb 11, 2020.

  1. Fian Augur

    Let's review the recent history of tradeskills:
    TDS - Full set of tradeskill recipes delivered
    TBM - ornamentation only
    EOK - ornamentation only + artisan aug quest

    Now has come the golden age of tradeskills:
    ROS - Full set of tradeskill recipes delivered, in addition, a tradeskill quest that gave you a BestinSlot earring.
    TBL - Full set of tradeskill recipes
    TOV - Full set of tradeskill recipes plus massive, evolving earring TS quest

    Let's look at the TOV earring quest:
    rank 4 - upgrade to charm aug that is no trade
    rank 5 - Power Source recipes that are tradeable
    rank 6 - Recipes for type 18 augs that are not tradeable
    rank 7 - recipes for type 19 augs that are not tradeable (I assume- I don't have this yet)

    I think we might be moving too much into tradeskills being required since it was viewed as an optional path for players and it is starting to become necessary. I don't have a problem with the evolving item requiring tradeskills - that is no worse than requiring all collections to be done for 4 expansions. But ranks 4, 6, and 7 also give significant aug bonuses to tradeskillers. Ranks 6 and 7 should probably have provided tradeable containers that use the rare drop to create the augs.

    In general, do we really need a full set of tradeskill gear for every expansion? It is nice, but developer resources might be better spent elsewhere. Imo, we are better off getting a full set of recipes for level expansions, and a reduced set for non-level expansions. The biggest impact for this might be the raid diamond equivalents that allow raiders that can only beat one expansion raid to create key gear for their class (pet earring, weapons, etc). I think that could be accomplished by using the latest level expansion container to accept future expansion raid drops.
  2. Ashian Augur

    I really like the current state. It was painful doing tradeskills on alts, but these days getting to 300 isn’t nearly so bad. While I don’t enjoy it, the reward makes it worth doing.
    Travestii likes this.
  3. ptah Augur

    Interesting take.. Im kinda on both sides of fence on this.

    I really enjoy Ros era. Both the conflag stuff and ear. Moving into tbl it was a bit too much to me. Just a copy of a copy of a copy, leftover for 3 time this week etc.

    Now I feel it a design and alot of TS is t2 raid armors. So the preview system so what is possible if so this or that.

    Dont get wrong Artisan prize is nice, does make or break a player NO. EQ is still disc/mash game with compound synergy for peak play. Does top end gear help YES, its a buffer and maybe if are near edge that make or break.. but for most bits of gear is nice to have but not a MUST.

    The Limited content and below average bang for that content.. you imho, are force to link each expansion to own new shiny tin foil. The gas to light the fire of sales is given expansion must haves.

    Keep up or fall into the sea of lost.
  4. Sancus Augur

    ToV locks too much behind TS's, in my opinion. The TS ear is a huge swath of content, which you miss out on entirely without doing TS's. There's the ear itself, which is best in slot, but PS recipes, Type 18 augs, Type 19 augs, and a Type 7/8 non-weapon proc aug are also locked behind that quest, which is in turn locked behind tradeskills. That's on top of all of the BiS gear being TS made, although those containers and the powersources are tradeable.

    It's good for the game to have TS's create relevant tradeable items. I don't like requiring that each character do TS's, and I don't think so much character power should be tied directly to them. The ToV proc augs locked behind that quest cumulatively are probably worth ~5% DPS for me. That's not huge, but it's worth more than an entire set of ToV raid gear vs group gear, DPS-wise.

    That said, I do think the TS quest line was well done and the requirements of ~300-ish were not particularly egregious. I really hope we don't see this kind of power locked behind tradeskills in excess of 300 + trophy, though, and I'd prefer to move away from power locked behind TS's in the future.
  5. Ngreth Thergn Developer

    That's probably not going to happen. But we'll see. I will consider locking LESS.

    I didn't give the 18/19 a "container" trade-able version, because... that's more items. Where I can I'm trying to reduce the amount of items. I did seriously consider it. (I didn't for the earlier proc augs because the skill and time requirements were much smaller)

    I'd like to see a "consignment" system like EQ2 has where someone can offer the "no trade" component , and other components, and the crafter does the "work." I think this would help with both desires. People that don't want to craft but want crafting results can get the item they want and crafters can do their thing!
  6. Sancus Augur

    I don't know if that's within the realm of possibility code-wise, but I would love to see that personally. It also is more "social" than just buying a tradeable container from the bazaar.

    FWIW, I've done the earring quest up to the max level and really enjoyed it (other than Precious Ore RNG :( ); I appreciate the work you put in on it. What I'm honestly really afraid is that something will come out where I personally have to get my TS's up to 350 or forgo something significant (the Artisan's Prize is just stats; I don't mind that as much), and I personally really don't enjoy the mechanism for leveling TS's over 300. I know some people do, but something that allows those who enjoy TS's to benefit from them without locking the rest of us out would be awesome.

    Part of it also goes back to the benefit different archetypes see from different kinds of items, too. Procs are often given for special things like this, and they're a good way to make special items useful. Stats don't do a whole lot, at least in terms of DPS, for casters, though, so more of my DPS upgrades this expansion come from special items (the new proc augs primarily), than from all of the raid gear I'm going to get. Philosophically, I think chase items should probably be a smaller portion of my overall DPS gain from itemization in an expansion, although that's definitely easier said than done.

    Anyhow, thanks for responding. Whether or not a system like that could ever get implemented, it is good to know that it's at least a concept that you've thought about.
  7. Deux Corpse Connoisseur

    Is there a tradeskill forum here or am I blind and missed it? Looks like the eqtraders message board is perma dead?
  8. Zamiam Augur

  9. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    To be fair, TS are a part of the game. People could make the same statement about it being unfair to be blocked from access to power if they choose not to raid, too.

    I hate hunters. I never do them. I accept having been blocked from some power from them. So, meh. So I had to choose to do some hunters or not get the rewards. When it was just bags, I didn't care. Now I have to.

    I get that some people despise tradeskills. But I'm not sure not liking to do some content in the game is a justification devs should consider regarding not putting in powerful rewards that require that content.
    Duder likes this.
  10. Fian Augur

    Thanks for responding. If item count is starting to be a problem, it sounds like it is driving design in unhelpful ways. It would be better to decide what is the best design, and have the system support that. However, I understand that system limits put a constraint on what is possible. If that is the case, it would be better to reuse TOV containers for the next expansion, so you can require fewer drops/subcombine items. You might also resurrect some old ingredients like you did for Ice of Velious.
  11. Fian Augur

    No one is saying that TS are not a part of the game, and that players should not have access to some power as a result. However, there is a balance. How would you like it if a significant part of player power was tied to completing hunter achievements? There is a balance that needs to be kept in what each system unlocks. Especially, when that system is truly a side system (tradeskills) versus the core system of the game that involves killing creatures.
  12. Fian Augur

    I would like to add one thing. I did have a lot of fun doing the earring TS quest. I was actually getting up early just so I could have the best experience camp in the game all to myself. I was the first on my server to unlock the PS recipe. The fact that it wasn't in beta, meant that I had to explore on my own how to figure things out as write ups were limited. Kudos to the developer to releasing a solid TS quest even without beta input.

    So while I am giving some criticism here, please don't take that as a complaint. Just always looking for ways to make the game we love even better.
    Sancus likes this.
  13. Aanuvane Augur

    Perma-dead as in not much traffic? Or not showing up for you? If you're not aware, we're just back from a prolonged outage because of hacking. So, yes, it may look like it's been really dead for a long time and yes, the traffic there is slow, but at least we're back up and if you want to start conversations there now, the ability to do so has been restored....
    Skuz and Vuplar Endoscribe like this.
  14. Kleitus_Xegony Augur

    My opinion....

    I'm tired of TS items being the "best" reward instead of an alternate reward but I am someone that absolutely despises doing trade skills. It's just not fun to me at all. I'd rather just not logon than do them. I've never finished any of the TS quests - they just don't do it for me. I haven't wasted the AAs on them either because that's just pointless to me.

    I have no problem with the occasional great item. I think it's good for the game and those that like doing trade skills. However, I think it's a problem when all of the best group gear is via trade skills, all of the best raid gear is via trade skills, and all of the best quest (closest we'd get to epic quests / items now) gear is via trade skills. Yes, I know - you can trade for most of the stuff but it feels like the gear in the game is just trade skills, trade skills, trade skills and nothing more unless you're willing to settle for less. I'd prefer it if they were an alternative to the other gear and brought variety to the options people have instead of just outright best in slot no matter what.

    All of my skills are at 300, trophies in random odd spots as far as being evolved but none of them maxed. Honestly, they're only that high because I occasionally get the feeling that I "have to do them" rather than "I like / want to do them" and I force myself to do them. For me, it's a terribly boring part of the game that I do my best to avoid and ignore.
  15. Kurage_of_Luclin Augur

    Isn't that same as a Muhbis ?

    1 player can give components for muhbis to crafter.
    2 crafter makes a muhbis
    3 player takes a muhbis adds a no drop and makes the desired item.
  16. Kurage_of_Luclin Augur

    Why not make "all" the ingredients needed in new TOV recipes, just drop off the TOV mobs as well as where they do in old world content. If someone wants to go old world they can , but if they want to stick with new content then, they can do that as well.
  17. Litefighter Lorekeeper

    [quote="Ngreth Thergn, I'd like to see a "consignment" system like EQ2 has where someone can offer the "no trade" component , and other components, and the crafter does the "work." I think this would help with both desires. People that don't want to craft but want crafting results can get the item they want and crafters can do their thing![/quote]

    I think as long as the items that a TS'r would make are not race specific (tinker) like belts and old AOAA boxes were for cultural augs it would not be that big of a deal and good compromise.
    Sancus likes this.
  18. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    Personally I prefered the RoS way of crafting, ie using a template in a normal loom/forge etc rather than having a container to create an item, it is pain having to empty 40 slots bags just to do a 2 slot combine.

    I also prefered the crafted items being for catching up and being sellable rather than best in slot.
  19. Risiko Augur

    Here's an idea:
    - raider gets a no drop item
    - raider hands item to an NPC
    - NPC hands a different no drop item and a tradable item to the raider
    - raider gives the tradable item to a crafter
    - crafter users the item in a combined that results in a tradable container
    - crafter hands container to raider
    - raider puts the no trade item they got from the NPC in to the container and hits combine
    - it's a no fail combine that destroys the container and the no trade item, and results in a no trade piece of gear

    Technically, that would be similar to a consignment where you have a crafter make the item with you providing the material. Even if the crafter gave the container they made to someone other than the original person, they would still have to go get the raid drop item to be able to use it, so it couldn't be used to game the system.
  20. Soulsiphon Elder

    I would love to see a reset Tradeskills to 0 button for those of us who have lvld up to 300 before doing the Trophy quests. that would be nice to make it not as daunting to lvl and get the trophies
    KC13 likes this.