Rogues need something in TLP's

"They get passed up for groups all the time from vanilla EQ all the way into and perhaps even through PoP and GoD"

The only server where a player would be speculating about being passed over all the way into and through PoP is Mangler (possibly Selos), because it is the only server not currently in PoP.

This discussion is very clearly about Rogue power in early expansions, and it's the same discussion that happens every single time a new TLP is released. Just like the moment Kunark hits Mangler, all the threads complaining about epics will be understood to be in reference to Mangler as well.

Keep arguing over semantics, but everyone except you fully understands the context of this discussion because everyone else can apply simple logic without having to be walked through it step by step.

I think the dozens of guilds on Live servers with 100+ subscribing members each would challenge that statement. I play semi-regularly on Live, which puts me in the distinct minority on these TLP forums.

This is simply not true. TLP's only account for 30% of their revenue based on the talk they gave a few months ago.

Since the issue is not present past Classic, or once you have decent weapons, it would have to be some change that doesn't damage output for any expansion after classic.

This means you can't add anything, without putting some kind of stupid limiter on it.... Like can't be used after XX.

All you can really do is move something that comes out in Kunark, forward, but it would have to be something improving damage marginally so they don't become the new monk joke.

Something as easy as moving Double Backstab up to lvl 45 could do this.
Possibly moving -A- discipline down some levels like Kinesthics

To parse well at Rogue, you need high up time on fights and good weapons and gear, along with ADPS classes in group, and maximizing buffs... No one has the same skill level, you will never have a perfect parse comparison.

I remember having 7? Rogues in my guild on Phinny in Luclin>OOW and the parses were all over due to laziness or missing a buff / Wep / ADPS

I hope y'all start taking more cheap shots at each other and get this thread locked before y'all get non-rogues nerfed.

Do you have a source for this, was it recorded or posted somewheree? Very interested to listen to this talk if it is available. I am not at all surprised by the # but it's the first time we've been given any kind of solid data on the relative strength of live vs the TLP's from a business perspective, to my knowledge.

Rogue dps is not the problem, they can do well.
The problem lies with the monk dps, requiering no gear and toping parse, while having more utilities.

Unfortunantly it was not recorded and the slides were not published. Someone, kotaku maybe, did a small article on it but didnt mention the numbers.

They did say the revenue from the game was growing YoY as well since 2014.

30 revenue is probably disproportionately high however given the fact that these tlps are not new. Theyre literally churning and burning the same rehashed product with minor and sometimes (see coirnav) unwanted tweaks.

If apple could sell iphone 3s for 10 years and just change the color people would be mystified if it accounted for 30 percent of their revenue.

Tlp are a cash cow. Yet we cant get a single steady gm presence on new, fresh servers.

Monk DPS isn't anything special until they get epic (which is an item, that you equip, and people often refer to as "gear") - which I agree is overpowered until around Luclin/PoP when there are better weapons from raiding. And from there on out weapons account for around 65-70% of monk DPS. Monks still need to hit ATK cap, they still need heroic stats, they still need hit points to live through AOEs.

Keep in mind that Monk utility has never been important or unique enough to secure raid spots if they didn't do competitive DPS. We've had many eras, especially in later expansions, where monks were considered a poor use of a raid slot because they were too far behind on DPS and they bring no aDPS or unique buffs to a raid.

I’d be happy if they gave rogues Kick.

You really don't want this, since Kick is on the same cooldown as backstab.

I’m not sure this a major hurdle. Monks got their abilities on separate timers now. Course, I have no idea how hard that was for devs.

Class wise, kicking seems to fit what a rogue would do, second only to monks.

Bards got kick recently. Let me tell you, an 85 bard can kick!