Bring back percentage linked adds

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Kiras, Mar 17, 2019.

  1. Natal Augur



    We have necros on our raids and don't have your problem. So either you are overstating your case of you have really a lot of them.

    A raid should revolve around resource management, not straight up dps. If dps itself is making a raid trivial or impossible, then that IMO is a major design flaw.

    IMO most, if not all, events should include a mechanic where the boss has a dynamic spell/melee mitigation that scales with incoming dps. That would force the raid to deal with the actual mechanics of the event on an even playing field, rather than just trivializing everything through dps (which is what your guild is apparently doing with Queen). Your success or failure would then depend on individual player skill rather than mindless maxing of dps.
    Caell likes this.
  2. Sancus Augur

    I'd wager our Necros, Druids, Shaman, Enchanters, Beastlords, Rangers, etc. put out far more DPS than yours on a per capita basis, because DPS depends on individual player skill (and they happen to be quite good).
    gotwar likes this.
  3. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    I'd like to see T1 raids as % based, T2 a mix (but not both in the same time!) and T3 time based.

    Lower Tiered guilds always seem to struggle meeting DPS checks due to lack of optimal groups, etc, so % based would make these raids easier for them, throwing them a bone in the early raids will at least give them something they can do.

    There is always later raids where the high DPS can show off.
  4. Tarvas Redwall of Coirnav, now Drinal

    I wish maxing dps was mindless. Regardless, time based adds are a significant pain in the for those raids and groups that don't have the bang and are nearly impossible to recover from. It wouldn't be so bad if events didn't reset to start after you screwed up and get wiped but it is what it is.
  5. Natal Augur

    Very few guilds actually doing Cactus or Queen have that problem however. I am sure they would love to have that problem, because then those raids would be completely trivial. But that does not happen.

    Cactus has percent based spawns btw, so you can't do what you are saying you are doing unless the people in your raids are complete dolts and just ignore them. In which case, maybe find better players because those folk will F you up on a real challenging raid.

    These "problems" you are describing are simple management issues caused by unskilled players on what should be a completely trivial event for you. If you deliberately shoot yourself in the foot while doing target practice on something 10 feet away, it is a user error, not a design error.
  6. Sancus Augur

    Yes, stopping DPS at 82% and doing absolutely nothing for 40+ seconds while the script catches up is the paramount of skill :rolleyes:

    (Not to mention not casting any DoTs or swarm pets in the first place, since you can't just stop those).

    Edit: Gotcharms actually has a video of it. The adds should spawn around 35 seconds in, and actually spawn 2 minutes in:

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  7. Sheex Goodnight, Springton. There will be no encores.


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  8. gotwar Gotcharms

    Your reading comprehension is lacking.
    Gyurika Godofwar, Ssdar and Sancus like this.
  9. Natal Augur



    Umm....no....it is not.
  10. Natal Augur



    That still does not change the fact that the vast majority of guilds are not even remotely capable of doing what you claim is common occurrence for you. If you are an extreme outlier then yes, on trivial content (which is what we are clearly talking about in your case), those folk do need to stop and wait. Failure to do so is a lack of discipline on their part. They should not be dotting and swarm petting the hell out of a mob when they KNOW it is going to cause a problem. You think they should be???? Is it really that vital that they top the dps chart on a trivial event no matter what?

    If you think about it, it is punishing them for being stupid.

    Basically what you are asking for is for trivial events to be designed in a way that makes them even more trivial (at least for you, everyone else can go suck lemons).

    If these events are that easy for you, why do you even do them? Why not split your raid into two 27 man squads, because you clearly have more than enough dps to do that and still beat them.
  11. Brohg Augur

    This "solution" has already been called out. It amounts to directly penalizing good play, literally deactivating players who try. Any good raid that does well gets punished, hard, for including non-bot necros, shm, dru. Those raids don't get to have the full number of raiders because your mechanic just turned them into dead raid spots. More punishing than a death touch.

    3 of each class. Couple extra war, cle, brd. so extreme. :rolleyes:

    The appropriate dps classes were on the adds, I promise they don't raid with nincompoops who ignore that stuff. The adds don't pop instantly, that's not up to the players. Good play cruises through the checkpoints, extras come up.
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  12. Windance Augur

    Coming from a guild that is not full of uber players it would be nice to have a few early raid events that were not DPS checks.
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  13. Sancus Augur

    To be clear, I totally agree with this. I think having a few events per expansion that have lower requirements (in all areas) is a good idea.

    I'd just prefer that was done without the mechanic discussed in this thread, which I think is completely possible (think of Gorowyn - nothing was HP based, but it was very friendly to mid/low tier guilds).
    Gyurika Godofwar and Ssdar like this.
  14. Brohg Augur

    I hate that raid SO MUCH for being unlosably easy. From my perspective its existence was detrimental to player quality for not punishing even the extremes of mediocrity. It made EverQuest's players worse.
  15. Jhenna_BB Proudly Prestigious Pointed Purveyor of Pincusions

    Preach!!
  16. Natal Augur

    You are complaining about people not having to burn full time on trivial events, and using that as a baseline for making said events essentially impossible for smaller guilds. Think about that for a moment. The game needs to be designed with all raiders in mind, not just a few high dps classes in a few high end guilds that accumulate them. There are a whole lot of other classes out there and a whole lot of other guilds out there. Raid design needs to accommodate them as well, not only right now but also an expansion into the future. The design failures associated with timed adds do not go away as the next expansion rolls around. If you are in a mid tier guild fielding low 40s you are probably still going to be falling short of the dps gate on a raid like OT, since it was designed with full raids with high dps.



    Are you suggesting that the mid tier guilds who can't field full raids and have to make do with fewer dps classes are not being penalized for good play as things stand? Because that is what you appear to be suggesting. That is what dps gates, such as timed adds, does. Bring X amount of dps or don't bother, because no matter how good your play is, you cannot win.

    A raid which is generally well designed with all guilds in mind, for example, is the SF raid. There is a small timed add component, but for the most part it is trivial (although this is not the case in the group mission, where it becomes extremely significant - it is straightforward getting to wave 4, and at that point you hit a dps check that makes the mission very difficult). That raid requires people to pay attention, and apply dps an organized disciplined way. As a result of that you can do the raid with relatively low numbers, even though that means a longer fight and increases the chance of someone messing up on AEs. everyone can get reward from a raid designed like that. It might be easy for some, hard for others, but if you can field 40 something you can beat it if you try hard enough.

    The OT raid is an example of terrible design, because you need a minimum of a certain amount of dps otherwise you get overrun, no matter how skilled your players are. It is not a problem if you are in a top tier guild that fields full raids and is heavy on dps classes, because that allows you to circumvent the mechanics that make the raid challenging (as so many have pointed out here, which proves my point - the raid is trivial for them precisely BECAUSE they have so much dps). The people in high end guilds really do not have a clue about the issues that mid-tier guilds have with this raid. They have not experienced it and do not know what they are talking about. Instead they come up with nonsense about problems that stem from the raid being completely trivial to them and (apparently) not being capable of dealing with that (hint - there is no reason to max dps on a trivial raid, just control your output and win, because you can't lose unless you are playing stupid)

    The OT raid has two checkpoints, both based on dps. Firstly, if you don't have enough dps either because you can only field 40 something in your raid, or you don't have a lot of dps classes available, the raid is impossible to win. Secondly, if you have a full raid and are dps heavy, it is stupid easy. Thirdly, inbetween that you have a situation where it can be won, but with varying degrees of difficulty. That third situation is a very narrow window however. The raid is either impossible/extremely hard or trivial/extremely easy, there is very little gradation between those two outcomes. That is a hallmark of bad design, and central to that are the timed adds which cause the problem. This raid would be so much more manageable if the adds were percentage based and the event used AEs/bombs instead of timed adds. It would still be hard for mid tier guilds, but not impossible.
  17. Daedly Augur

    I hate adds, I want more Tank and Spank!
  18. Brohg Augur

    I think you may be mistaking my position in the metagame of raid guilds. <Ne Cede Malice> raids off hours making recruiting a challenge. We're typically 2 or even 3 groups short of a full roster, and that including at least our fair share of under performers. We definitely have to encounter & battle through every single event mechanic (and then some. our unique failures provided grounds for script fixes to Talendor as late as Oct 2018). We're (ballpark) bottom of the legit raiding forces, and I'm telling you : hp locks on bosses are da debil. Raids lacking substantive dps checks are da debil.

    There is such a thing as excessive specificity in roster requirements on a per-event basis (in the far past, class-specific banes were a thing, for instance), but requiring "dps" isn't remotely the same. If your raid force is all tanks? Fuggit, roll with it. Mix adps with their groups as available, and expect/demand harder play from all of them. EQ doesn't care who's doing 40k higher dps, it can come from each of those tanks No Problem.
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  19. Sancus Augur

    https://eq.magelo.com/profile/3699131 (my wizard)
    https://i.imgur.com/zYTza93.png (got's paladin)

    It's all well and fine to disagree with us, but claiming we have not experienced mid-tier raiding is patently inaccurate.
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  20. Cicelee Augur

    You know, the irony is that for all the talk about raids... if you read the original post, it was talking about the group game.
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