Lol true DPS is single target only. That's funny. I get that DPS on a mob with locked HP shouldn't really count for as much but like if you're doting up burgeoning that you're not intending to kill right away but still doing useful damage. Well that's totally fair and should be counted.
Lol, If I am so bad on my druid, and clueless on my chanter; why does your guild keep trying to recruit me? Seriously, you obviously don't play either class. You need to find someone else to troll/stalk/whatever this mentally disturbed crap is that you do. Back off!
I'm trying to help. If you don't realize you have a lot to learn with regard to DPS for both classes you'd never make it past app.
Running into the same issues, Fian. Based on our one week of raids, our enchanters were reduced to 10 - 15th on the raid parses. I, too, have found my mana supply is not as easy to maintain in the group or raid setting. Still trying to find the success other commenters on here are telling us I should have using all my resources: Gather Mana, Mage Rods, paragon, second spire, arcane secrets, draconic potential, mount, auras, Jester, etc. You noticed that the same 5 people are all over enchanter boards saying the same to every enchanter seeking help: you either suck because you didn't parse top 5 or you were overpowered and should stop complaining about the fix you knew coming. Would be nice to get a helpful response; however, this quote sums up most of what you get from these boards. My experience within my own guild, Ninelder, went along the lines of the main line dps noticing the enchanters were above EoK raid geared DPS in RoS. They had not upgraded any items to current focus stats. This was true in both raid and groups. However, once the gear was upgraded, the usual dps would beat enchanters on a parse. It was not by a huge margin, but it was at least 100k on Ioulin between myself and the wizard in my group; and the necros, in my group, would out dps me by about the same on Cactus. After 6/20, the separation between the wizard and myself (same two) was 285k dps on Ioulin. The Necros were 250k dps ahead of me on cactus.
Insulting people helps how? You don't even play the class! You have nothing to teach? You hop on to all threads and defend the nerfs that you probably requested, all at the detriment to the game. Honestly with how belligerent you are, and the high turnover rate your guild must have to be recruiting off server ever single month, you would have to be crazy to want to app.
You might not like how he says it but that doesn't make him wrong about his points. Good chanters were out dpsing dps classes at times both in raid and group settings. At rk 2 it was a mana free dot that gave something like 36,000 dps it was even worst in raids with rk 3 and support more often. You can cry, kick and scream all you want but that was never intended. That being said the recast timer on your dot should not be there. Take that off and if in 2 or 3 months time you find good chanters are working around mana concerns and putting up numbers higher than desired you then lower the base damage a little again.
He is a troll who loves overnerfs causing people to quit the game. Most likely he was one of the people suggesting them. Now he is defending it, there is no point he has ever made in defense of overnerfs that was right. And good chanters were outdpsing slackers who either don't know or don't care to try to play well. He has quite literally added nothing useful to any of these threads.
Devs made the call already so this really doesn't matter but the ability to hit 800,000 burst and do 300,000 out to 15 minutes beats a lot more than just slackers. Just like druids and shaman before they were fixed you guys could and did beat actual dps classes in dps. And after the reduction you still do very solid dps. And before someone claims this only applied to raiders in a group setting it was 36,000 dps for free on as many mobs as you could dot at once on top of your other single target dps. Putting you ahead of actual dps classes in most settings even if they were playing well. Your primary dot was over tuned no matter how you look at it. Never mind it being mana free or returning mana. It never should have taken 2 years to realize and you should not have a recast timer added to your storm dot line. Otherwise this is about where it should have been after he first did you dot revamp.
It's not belligerence to posit that someone who hasn't played with the best probably has something to learn from them, some insight to gain or new approach to add to their toolbox that might raise their performance. It might be said: especially if the specific someone has said explicitly that they haven't been getting the results seen by class exemplars. Why recruit someone like that, who hasn't matched their full potential yet? Recruit them in the hope that they're a type of player that cares about not matching their full potential, rather than shutting out performance feedback. In the hope that they care in a way that motivates them try to match their full potential, instead of going the other way - reacting with defensiveness and hostility.
400k+ was doable on Sathir line. 500-600k on Cactus. Comparable results on Skyfire and Crypt Robbers. On events like these with lots of adds that lived for a bit of time, Enchanters could sit pretty comfortably behind That One Class for top DPS slots without much chance for others to compete. This was largely dependent on how hard your melee pushed when adds were up. It definitely needed to be adjusted and several of us communicated as much after RoS release. Our single target was pretty reasonable; the scaling of Mind Tempest's high base damage on multiple targets is what gave the big numbers. Post-nerf Enchanter DPS is complete trash, anyone who says otherwise is trolling. Even worse, you can play to 90% effectiveness by just hitting your spam key and clicking your ADPS abilities. There is no decision making to be had since Enchanters don't have a source of secondary/tertiary burns or stacking choices to make. I've sent off some suggestions along with data to support it; hopefully we see some adjustments next patch to put us in line with other "Tier 2" utility/dps classes.
You clearly haven't read anything I've said if you think I'm trolling or even agreed with the over-nerfing of enchanters. My info is from grouping with some of the best players and I don't think I've said anything that Gotcharms or Sindaan have really disagreed with. You should take that as a hint.
What they really should have done imo is to have kept the damage the same, lower the mana return and put in the recast timer as they did.
The 40% loss quote that was going around on multiple targets seems to be about right. Which imo is where support classes should fall. But you do have a point about where that falls relative to druids, beastlords and rangers. It is now pretty obvious that those classes have dots that are still to high considering dots were supplemental to them. They should not have a dot over 9,000 in base damage. And druids having spell twincast and improved twincast impacts a lot of what they do still. Otherwise we have the issues we currently have. Support classes that add a ton to the raid that people are now downplaying because its not exciting and that put out massive amounts of dps because its all split up. 20,000 dps per target from dots and then falling back on to their melee or nukes or pets for what was reasonably balanced dps relative to actual dps classes before they got the dot gravy train.
Chanters are the latest class that's been over-nerfed. Before it was druids and shaman, then before them it was bards. Its making people quit the game. Its stupid and detrimental to the game. The nerfs are so far out of the realm of reason that trying to talk sense into the devs seems pointless, cause even if you could get a half-way compromise, its not enough. Why bother? Players aren't willing to bother, they are sick of it. This has been my whole point.
Either/or but while this sucks for raiding chanters, its an even heavier blow for grouping ones. So it should be fixed in their favour.
The base damage of druid dots, even if you think its to high, has no efficiency. Before EoK we only used sunray as a debuff to pump up mainly necro DPS, and wrath if we had mana to waste. The rest of the dots were never used. Now after the druid/shaman over-nerf most dots are back to collecting dust. But we lost all efficiency on sunray, Its taking noticeable chunks out of our DPS to do less damage than it did in VoA. Your raids DPS is going to suffer there even ignoring any DPS the druid does, your casters will do less DPS, due to the overnerf of another class. Similarily your chanters are casting less dps spells and able to afford casting dicho only with GoM or GGoM procs. This means less chromatic haze less GGoM, less synergy, and of course less dicho to the casters in their groups as well. The trolls who asked for the overnerf are having it bite them in the behind. Everyone suffers.
We just seem to be playing a different game. Our druids and enchanters after the latest changes still are doing anywhere from 140-250k pretty easy on every RoS event. Our shaman don't typically dot a lot and for them it takes stacking a bunch of dots to do work and our raid mobs don't have the room. That destroys VoA dps level by multitudes so your claims are fictional. These guys also say they are doing just fine in groups they just burn through mana now to do high dps levels like that.
People just want to vent since they are angry even though it was to be expected. Most of it is pure hyperbole. Some who claim to have been around since 99 really started playing these classes in the past 2 years after the first revamps occured and fully expected to a dps class plus.
Complaining about the debuff dots not being very mana efficient is perfectly fair. I posted at the time that I thought they went too far with them. But they're still good to use if you consider your role to be ADPS more than DPS. The problem I had was with the comparison to VoA DPS was that it was based solely on two spells. Druid DPS is still very good and much better than Enchanters at this point in time. If anything the mana should be decreased significantly on those lines but the damage is fine. Or basically the big picture for Druid DPS is good and it wouldn't make sense to improve it right now.
Yah Kizant, why are you such a troll? I mean it's not like you're always topping parses. And clearly you don't get to see who is on a parse in the guild, aka druids and used to be chanters. Nor do you know that before the chanter nerf, chanters were beating some pretty kickass dps.
