Enchanter nerf

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Verily Tjark, Jun 21, 2018.

  1. Gnomeland Augur

    With zero communication, you can never tell whether they intended it to be this bad, or they just messed up. I guess they would rather put what limited time they have to work on the game, rather than argue online, but two sentences about what they intended would've made it so much easier to discuss.

    As it is, maybe the goal is to destroy enchanters as a DPS class. Maybe it wasn't. Who knows?
  2. menown Augur

    Maybe now is the best time to argue for more DoT related AAs. The canyon between your class and the other DoT classes is too large.
  3. Jetslam Augur

    Don't have the exact numbers, but last night I did ~245k in ~900s for our Cactus event. That was good enough for 4th on my parse. It was an off night and I don't think people were trying as much as usual. For comparisons sake, our uber necro did ~500k.
  4. Jetslam Augur

    Do the other hybrid dot casters (dru/shm) have 59% dot crit as well? I'm honestly not sure.

    For SHM at least, we have 2 "burns" that affect our dots, and nothing that affects our nukes which are garbage to begin with. Our two burns are one of our spires that increases dot crit chance that is rarely used as we opt for the group ADPS one. And we have 10 charges of twincast for our dots. Ench on the other hand seem to be the opposite with several burns for their nukes and few for their dots. Do chromatic haze group procs trigger from dots?

    Maybe the intention is for you to be more nuke dps focused similar to wizards instead of dot dps focused similar to necro. In that case, you should be pushing for better nuke lines as that seems to be the class focus based on available AAs.

    Granted, both Dru/SHM's other role as hybrids (healer) is probably more useful in today's raids than ench's other hybrid role (CC). When we can't dps, we can swap to healer and be effective. When you can't dps, you can swap to cc/adps, but there's not much use for that in today's raids. Ench's strong suit seems to be their multiple roles they can play in the group game and how powerful CC is there.
  5. Dolaorn New Member

    I agree Jet in the group game Enchanters have a lot to offer a group with their CC, ADPS, Buffs, and Charm. Granted I know I'm out of the raid loop but I can tell from watching the raids and the guild chanter channel it hasn't changed much for Enchanters. On Raids there is little to no CC, no charm, so they have nothing but their buffs and pitiful damage nukes now. There is no other role for enchanters to fall back on. And a lot of chanters aren't going to be happy with that. You quoted a 500k DPS Necro. How much of that was due directly to Enchanter buffs? How much for Mages, or wizards? What happens to raids when Enchanters stick to what they want us to be good at, the group game? The DoTs were too powerful, no real enchanter denies that, the point is they were nerfed too much. And the numbers on the previous page don't even show Tempest, Strangulate or Constriction changes, they show the level 105 spells. Tempest got about a 60% reduction in damage not 45%.
  6. Brohg Augur

    it's pretty mystifying that you have an event that long with even "some" raiders having correct damage output.
  7. Yimin Augur

    Enc lose about 30 percent of there dmg with this nerf , no real need for crowd control when tanks can take on over 5 mobs with ease , and add to that most tanks have a slow belt ! yeah I would not be to happy as an Enc atm in the group game ....

    YiMin
  8. Sancus Augur

    I'm not totally sure which direction you were going with this question, but I do think it's an interesting one to answer. I tested one burn and one sustained scenario with and without Enchanter DPS on kizant's web app. I'm not going to include links because I swear they play tricks on me, and I moved around some ADPS stuff and they don't include that so the numbers wouldn't be the same. But basically my assumption is a Bard / Enc / Dru / Mag / Mag / Wiz group.

    On a full-out burn (84s, which is the duration of TC + ITC), adding an Enchanter added 24,519,867 damage (291,903 DPS), which was a 40.5% increase.

    For sustained (400s), adding an Enchanter added 25,088,495 damage (62,731 DPS), which was a 24.66% increase.

    My guess is it's a bit higher for Wizards, especially for sustained since a lot of the Mage damage comes from RS.

    I think this is why a lot of us don't really see how Enchanters lost a raid role, given that numerically they contribute quite a lot (these numbers x3 or x4 casters, plus Druids who also benefit quite a bit). At the same time, that damage doesn't report to them, and a lot of it (IoG, activated C Haze) doesn't really require an active role. IMO they've done a lot to help with this by adding Dicho, Gift of Hazy Thoughts, and Beguiler's Synergy, which collectively make actively Enchanter-ing more rewarding. That stuff still doesn't translate into their own numbers, though, and I'm sure it doesn't feel amazing using crappy spells for a chance to proc things for other people. There's also significantly diminishing returns after 3 or so Enchanters.

    On the one hand, from a caster's point of view, it'd be a little silly if the person contributing 40% of your burst DPS also did as much DPS as you (which could happen on some events before the nerfs). On the other hand, there are other classes that contribute significant ADPS or other utility (Rangers, Beastlords, and Druids come to mind) that retain a very strong ability to DPS, only slightly below (or sometimes above) that of DPS classes that don't really contribute in the same way. And, while I think Enchanters have downplayed their other utility a bit, it is true that CC is pretty limited in raids. Most of their time is spent DPSing, so from a pure gameplay point of view that should probably feel rewarding rather than lackluster.

    Lowering the gap makes a lot of sense IMO. It's difficult though, because a lot of people have a lot of opinions about how "Class X shouldn't out parse Class Y." If/when Mages get excessively nerfed, you'll have plenty of posters affirming that Mages aren't intended to ever compete with (and therefore sometimes beat) Wizards / Zerkers / Rogues / sometimes Necros on raids because we have pets that can tank in the group game (remember when Mages doing 70% of Wizard DPS was considered balanced in TBM?). Monks deal with the same thing, although their survivability benefits do have a bit of relevance in raids.

    It's pretty hard to keep Wizards / Zerkers / Rogues slightly higher than Mages / Monks, which are then slightly higher than Rangers / Beastlords, which may or may not be slightly higher than Enchanters / Druids / etc. There's also the whole thing about tuning around duration which may or may not have been thrown out the window. There's not a lot of wiggle room for the devs at that point, and even if such close balancing were achieved, it would almost never be reflected in parses because the skilled players would out perform slightly less skilled counterparts and events would inevitably slightly favor one class or another.

    Basically balance is hard, so I do sympathize. I do wish the devs would boost some classes; Monks or Rogues could probably get a bone thrown to them. Not that they're terrible DPS or anything, but they're certainly below Caster/Zerker DPS at this point. After having Druids/Enchanters top (or come close to topping) parses, I don't think a monk topping a parse would be that out of line :p . I also really wish there was more communication; even if you're really OP, it's difficult to swallow getting nerfed by a single line in the patch notes. Some general design goals would be nice, and some communication with knowledgeable players. A lot of the overpowered abilities over the last few years have been brought up by the classes with those abilities in beta, but nothing has been changed. I know I personally was concerned with a particular ability Mages got in RoS and suggested ways to make it more balanced, but it never got touched. I doubt I'll get any response to that PM when they do nerf it, instead it'll just get gutted with no chance at reversal. They might take some other things that aren't overpowered at all while they're at it :( .

    That was way longer than I intended, but yeah...
  9. Sheex Goodnight, Springton. There will be no encores.

    TL;DR for FQCS...balance is difficult, and please don’t nerf Mages?
    Sancus likes this.
  10. Derresh Augur

    ADPS will prevent this game from ever having any hope of balance.

    The real OP classes hide their OP dps inside others dps. :)
  11. AnzoRagespirit Augur


    Like bards? We have a couple bards in our guild who make the top 5 on some raids. Not because others aren't " doing their best" but because bards today can actually pump out some good numbers.
  12. Verily Tjark Augur

    I used to cast Dicho... sucks for you guys, not again. Not after what I saw on raids last night.

    It's clear that other classes are going to have to pick up the slack now. Enchanters will no longer be your workhorse for slacking DPS to hide behind. Raids with timed add spawns are going to be fun for you slackers.

    The recast timer is just plain dumb. I agree with previous posts about it. If I want to run myself oom, let me do it.
  13. Bahdah Augur

    Nerds.
    Pano, Sancus and Fintank like this.
  14. Genusii Journeyman

    Enchanters, Verily Tjark, are a bot raider.

    I hope Daybreak makes a mercenary version soon; however, most raiders probably have one ready to go.
  15. Rosarchx New Member

    Enchanters have enough tricks in the bag that we are not gonna run OOM very often. Enchanters have always had a the suck of nukes reloading slow. So by nerfing all 3 of the Dot line by making one useless, another part of the long reload time game wait wait wait to cast and the 3rd dot just nerfed has pissed us off. Many long time chanters that know the class might quit cause of this bs. a 60 to 70 percent nerf on a spell is too dam much. Spent too much time on the character for this type of nerf.

    Rosarchx
  16. Forcallen Augur

    I am going to call BS. No way hes getting those numbers to that duration without some shadiness like double burns initially with banner games, multiple IoG's and/or Scarlets to specific groups just to inflate their numbers over others.
  17. Scornfire The Nimbus Prince


    I had 2 chanters aye, might've been higher than 500k though, had the parser running on my cleric -_-

    Also, it was def only 450s lol, Jet's on the drugs
  18. Derresh Augur

    it was 450second parse not sure where jet got 900seconds from
  19. Fintank Augur


    450s?! WRU Rangers!

    #PagingDrDart
  20. Repthor Augur

    enchies are basicly the biggest dps contributer in any raid theres not a class in the game they dont amp

    it just dosent end up landing on their parse between C and haste alone its a significant contribution. then the group stuff for even more then their own personal dps on top of that

    when your a soport you need to get use to the fact that alot of the numbers others are doing is becoz of you