EOTD will be the end of this game

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Lilura, Apr 11, 2018.

  1. Khat_Nip Meow

    EotD was available when EoK was current. If people don't have it then what were they doing during that expansion?
  2. Lianeb Augur

    Challenge accepted

    Lianeb in a full set of Conflagrant gear. I even removed the two augs that i have from Raids on them so I only had Group content gear. I also only use 25 Purity augs cause i didn't want to waste 35s

    210159 HP
    152189 Endur
    6602/3332 AC

    1131 HStr
    1146 Hsta
    1616 Hagl
    1271 HDex

    This was me tanking the west wing in HS for one hour in full group gear. We could pull the 3 golems in the rooms at one time. We were not splitting and not CCing I tanked it if it came to camp. I ran Resolute Defense, Field Champion, both rank 3 and would flash rarely to help Cleric catch up at times. Yes I know i was not hitting much for discs I wanted to see what both looked like with most things equal.

    Tanking summary for: Lianeb ---
    Total Melee --- Damage: 26037209 ---
    Avg hit: 8702 ---
    Attempts: 5162 ---
    Riposted: 194/5162 [3.76%] ---
    Parried: 406/4968 [8.17%] ---
    Dodged: 292/4562 [6.4%] ---
    Blocked: 142/4270 [3.33%] ---
    Defended: 1034/5162 [20.03%] ---
    Missed: 953/4128 [23.09%] ---
    Hits: 3175/4128 [76.91%] ---
    Absorbed: 183/3175 [5.76%] ---
    Real Hits: 2992/3175 [94.24%]

    This is Lianeb in Full RoS raid gear
    268049
    191757
    7653/3446

    1283 HStr
    1337 HSta
    1768 HAgl
    1432 HDex

    This is me tanking the same spot for 1 hour the only thing that changed was i put my raid gear back on.

    Tanking summary for: Lianeb ---
    Total Melee --- Damage: 23691518 ---
    Avg hit: 8097 ---
    Attempts: 5139 ---
    Riposted: 274/5139 [5.33%] ---
    Parried: 503/4865 [10.34%] ---
    Dodged: 274/4362 [6.28%] ---
    Blocked: 89/4088 [2.18%] ---
    Defended: 1140/5139 [22.18%] ---
    Missed: 925/3999 [23.13%] ---
    Hits: 3074/3999 [76.87%] ---
    Absorbed: 148/3074 [4.81%] ---
    Real Hits: 2926/3074 [95.19%]

    What i see is a 7% increase to damage taken for a 14% decrease in AC. There is a 23% difference in HP but we all knew Raid gear has more HP and AC. What really surprised me was actually how close the parses are verse the difference in gear. I know there are alot of variables with mobs and length of fights etc but they are still in a ballpark.

    I will say this at no time did I feel like I was going to do die, the gear was a bit limiting to the way I pull but I quickly adjusted, being in group gear did not seem to be to limiting or impossible to do anything. I will prolly run the group missions later on to see how those compare but i suspect really the same results
  3. Aurastrider Augur



    You assume everyone is always current. Some people are new, some people are returning players, others main change and start all over, others don't have the playing time to finish everything in an expansion when it is released. There are an endless number of reasons as to "why" or what they were doing. Maybe they did not have enough power to survive in EOK so they were gearing up in previous expansions and doing the AA grind. The what were people doing is not really as important as the why would the devs create a roadblock forcing anyone to go back to a previous expansion to progress through a current expansion. Its doubtful they will make any changes to EOTD at this point but maybe they will see how people object to this type of development and avoid doing it in the future. Personally I will do EOK progression before I attempt ROS but I still have a ways to go so its a non issue for me now. But if I wanted to go mess around in ROS this does limit my ability to do so in certain areas which does make ROS seem like a little less of a value in terms of me purchasing it compared to some of the previous expansions.
  4. Zhaunil_AB Augur

    It's also oversimplification by you and because of that not true - what he's posted against.
    You and him wouldn't need to hold this exchange if Dev's had adapted my suggestion (or well, picked up on the general idea behind it at least) during beta of tying the relevant EoK-progression into the RoS one. It could easily have been done in such a way that both lore- and script-wise it'd have made "complete sense".
    As he said: Carrying over progression from one "expansion" (in quotation marks because RoS is no real expansion imo) was a first and is still and ever will be bad form.
    What they did for the audience he was posting about was to require to complete TWO progression lines only to raid current content. a needless slap in a returning player's face - and for that to quality as such it does not matter how "hard" or "long" EoK progression is or isn't.


    Quite true, quite true! I know that kind of players too.
    But i also know the opposite - the raider who doesn't care and, if at all, does only the barest minimum.
    His reference to gear wasn't to diminish those players imo.
    Instead it was to put the "we want hard group content" into perspective - much needed in some cases i'm afraid, since people forget all too quickly the advantage you have in past expansion's raid gear to do current group stuff (especially after a level-increase as in RoS but also with TBM to EoK for example).


    Basing more or less general statements on such specific bad examples is no good form though.
    Yes, those 6mages must've been bad - most likely dead most of the time or boxed or way undergeared/AA'd or - most likely - simply not at the keyboard/paying attention much.

    Yes, those players want essence1 too, as you say.
    But in your engrossment in that example YOU are forgetting that this isn't representative (well, unless we're talking VERY different populations here on your server and mine). You are generalizing, or so it appears, where no generalization is allowed.


    erm.. nope.
    If anything will be "killing the game", it won't be the (few, mind you!) "gimme crowd" you are referring to obviously.
    It would be design decisions which do not pay attention to, as he's put it, people's RL situation and such - knowing your audience is key with any product and the audience is far larger than the so-called "hardcore raiders" and "gimme hard-mode crowd".
    I cannot agree with your final sentence in that post either - i feel that dev's have favored one side of the table (that tends to be oh so vocal especially on these forums that in their filter-bubble they've come to think they were "the players" - as opposed to "players too" that they really just are) for far too long already.
  5. Zhaunil_AB Augur

    Nicely done i guess and generally within what my own experience would suggest (though i've never done a direct comparison on the same char).

    As someone who plays all tanks (well, one obviously more often than the other two) and has characters of the same class over different accounts to accommodate ALTs AND heals, i can safely say that a group-geared tank is "harder" to keep up than a raid-geared one (well, it's also obvious isn't it?).
    The bolded part is the key factor.
    In group gear, one (well me at least) plays "differently" and more "at the limit" than in raid-gear, always.
    Where i struggle with two or three in group gear (and keep in mind your example is using present group gear too, not "old" group gear in new content - i.e. displays a situation AFTER the group-geared tank has mastered the challenges of the expansion already or spent a fortune and geared up completely), in raid gear i (same player, so no difference in "skill" ) don't break much of a sweat with 5.
    Especially if you're "new" to an expansion - and your example does not pay tribute to that - that's a difference that matters.
    Noone said it wasn't doable in group gear - but it certainly is more of a challenge to tackle an (new) expansion in (old) group gear than in (old) raid gear. That's what his "put your raid gear and try it in group gear" was about as i read it.
    Corwyhn Lionheart likes this.
  6. Zhaunil_AB Augur

    I disgree on the "downfall" part.
    But i would agree if this were of more of a "contributes to the downfall" tone instead.
    It was and still is a bad design decision imo, and origins in that - in my point of view - EoK and RoS were initially designed to "be one", not two expansions.


    To your other points:
    I do not get this part - necessary to raid beyond EoK, for what?
    Certainly not for essence1, no raids necessary at all for that.

    "long, complicated and difficult" are so subjective terms it's not worth discussing over really.
    "Not pleasant to do" i agree - though as others said, as a whole the EoK progression "makes sense" (for EoK) and ppl would loose out on some of the fun of EoK if they hadn't done it at least once.

    This is the part that got me stuck on the thread really.
    I can't believe that.
    Or well, i can - if i envision the most crappy "guild" my limited fantasy can come up with.
    IF - and that's a big if, because i do not quite believe you there - this were the case then imo you would do good to turn your back on these people.
    More likely though, as was pointed out above, the real issue is with you instead.

    I know from my own experience that there are apps i like to help, those that i can and do help because it's good for the guild even though i were at best indiff to them and lastly those that i won't help, no matter how much the guild would need the character they app with.
    As the saying goes where i come from: As you shout into the woods, so does it shout back...

    Well yes - i can see why you'd get this reply.
    There is a difference though between expecting help (and feeling entitled to it) and getting it.
    People - and i am basing this mostly on myself - are expecting people that put in some effort. Not to do it all by themselves, mind you, but to show initiative and a positive attitude. Do that and more likely than not you WILL get help during off hours.
    But expect others to accomodate you and you most likely won't.

    I tell apps to make plans and organize groups. i expect them to at least ask for help when they need it and to be as informed as the internet allows. Only when someone is really solitary will i "drag" them out for a group or two so my reply in the app thread can be based on some personal experience, and it won't ever be to actually progress them.

    Getting already flagged players is good for the rest of the guild, because they need not go through old for the umpteenth time. And making completing of essence1 a requirement is the - nrtual - consequence of the expansion design. But players are generally not rejected from a trial because they lack some progression. They might, as Yinla put it above, be rejected from full member though / fail their trial, in just about any guild serverwide, if they do not finish it "in time".

    No it doesn't.
    As was said, the parts are tradeable and the rarer parts (ores, lymphnodes) are not THAT much of a drag to farm; most of that can even be done as you do the normal group tasks, with only minimal delay.
    Getting to 54 in any tradeskill is free, getting to the just over 100 for the first combine is easy and getting to the 180 or so to do the 2nd combine yourself too (so you need not farm the extra ores+lymphnodes for the no-fail container) isn't too time-consuming either.

    Meh... Scorched is simply a matter of organization.
    When i do it with an app, i get have him con the factions then do the 3tasks he CAN do first in one go one evening. then the switch and final partisan the next (since, as was said above, these are rather long - but mostly due to the running involved).

    I can see you having issues with these if you are doing them alone, in that case i'd plan for an evening per task perhaps. Tasks are - all but one - unlimited though, so easy doable in chunks that suit the individual. With "just" two hours daily of focused gameplay, i expect any half-decently geared lvl110 character to be able to molo them all within a week - help simply makes this a much much shorter chore.
    And the parts before and after Chardok are easy enough to do at least two tasks per evening.

    Recently i had to call it after just 3chardok tasks, because the app in question "insisted" on agro'ing just about every possible and impossible mob on the way that i as WAR could avoid, dragging them out for far too long. He's only partly to blame ofc, since knowledge of the zone helps a LOT but still - it cost time and nerves. Still, he's got it done nonetheless. So would/could you.
    Corwyhn Lionheart likes this.
  7. Sindaiann Augur

    Lmfao those get the boot. I cant f***in stand people like that, zero rationale
    Zhaunil_AB likes this.
  8. slayerofbats Augur

    Raiding is not the opposite of easy mode.
    Corwyhn Lionheart and Zhaunil_AB like this.
  9. p2aa Augur

    Are you raiding ? I'm sure you don't as you speak of gearing with chase loot. I raid, and I saw tanks in group gear (pure group gear, not chase loot) tank better than some raid gear tanks.
    Also, Lianeb parse in this thread confirms you that there is hardly any difference on the dmg intake between a group gear tank and a raid gear tank (- 700 dmg on average on a raid gear tank). The defended % are even around the same.
    I knew AC impact was overated these days in raid, and in group game it's the same too.

    I repeat it, what plays the biggest impact on survival these days for a tank is not gear, but how well you use your discs. Aka relative to skill of the player. And I'm sorry but usually the average casual player is most of the time terrible at playing his class. It's fine, not everyone want to perform his class to the best of his abilities, but then don't come complain the problem is game content when devs gave you the tools to play your class at an enough good level.
  10. Lianeb Augur

    Look i get it, and always have.
    I know the group comtent is more challenging in group gear than it is in raid gear. But when i can pull 3-4 mobs at a time and not use hardly any of the my defensives or other things to help out, in full on 100% group gear (keep in mind this is not rhe best in slot gear) and live or have little to no close or near deaths. The game is not hard. Now i am not claiming it needs to be harder but i also dont think it needs to be easier.

    Utilizing the proper discs and such i am willing to bet the group gear could allow me to pull 5 maybe 6 at a time. Keeping mind also that the group i used for this had or used zero CC abilities and the only slow used was the proc belt.

    I think more than anything this should show that the gear gap in not as large as people pretend it is.
    I will reiterate:
    Tanks are gear dependent but the difference in a full geared raid tank and a group tank is not the gear it is the player
    A 7% increase in damage taken is not a massive difference like some claim, i get that a raid tanks survivability is higher (as it should be) but the parses show it is not as much as some to think it is.

    As far as the comment on having to adjust play style. Of course there is an adjustment when youre in raid gear you pull like a mad man. Group gear does not allow for this. People that know me or have played with me can atest to this, i can and will fill the extended target window at times in current content withiut cc and still live, youre not going to do that in group gear. Nor do you need to, i pull like to keep myself engaged in the game. So yeah adjustments to pulling were made.

    It also doesnt matter if new content ir not it will still be a 7% difference between the tanks on content release. Raid players do not get a free set of raid gear on opening day just like group players don’t
  11. Corwyhn Lionheart Guild Leader, Lions of the Heart

    Hmmm you missed my post when I said all I was addressing was Cicelee's Easy Button complaining. And I apologize for going off topic saying that I was ONLY addressing Cicelee's comment and not the OPs post.
  12. Corwyhn Lionheart Guild Leader, Lions of the Heart

    Ummmm... you seem to have missed something. I didn't ask if you could do a "test" group gear nor whether you could do content in it. And of course the rest of your group was in group gear too.

    I said if raiders feel there isn't enough of a challenge in the group game they should play in group gear. And not for a day forever... just never use your raid gear in the group game THEN and only then should you feel the need to comment on how easy group content is.

    But I do appreciate you showing how large the differences are. Those numbers are by no means insignificant although an hour really isn't a good indication. Seeing how big that AC difference tells a lot. I know how much easier it is for me to tank mobs using my ac discs.

    AND you still have to keep in mind the AVERAGE ability of group players. A fair sized portion of the content should be doable by the average player with some content at the end offering more of a challenge (IN MY OPINION no law here just my opinion).
    Zhaunil_AB likes this.
  13. segap Augur

    No, you're the one that keeps ranting about raid gear in thread after thread, week after week. People point things out, use real examples, and you just keep moving the goal posts. Group gear is more than adequate for tanks (and all other classes) in all group content. The only difference really is how reckless you can be and how fast you can go.


    And this is what we keep telling you. It's not the gear, it's the "ability" of said players. The thing is, the game is tuned around having those abilities. Asking them to design the game against tanks turning on attack and occasionally hitting taunt will make anyone that has a clue completely over powered. The answer is and always has been people need to put forth some effort to learn to play the game. It's actually not that hard and the advice is easily obtained through the forums, google or just seeking out help in game. I'd hope one of the largest casual guilds has several people in guild chat that would be able to give helpful advice to get people moving forward.
  14. Lianeb Augur

    You seemed to to have glossed over the numbers. I am not sure if you are remembering GoD or something similar but a 700 hp average hit is no where near “massive” in RoS content. And yes the whole group was group geared, in fact they were all better equipped than I was with BIS T2 gear.

    There was nothing I did last night in group gear that limited what I could or could not do, hell the cleric didn’t even have to stop to med ever.
    Why would I only limit myself to group gear when I can do the same things in it that I can in raid gear. Sure I am not going to fill an xtar window in group gear but is there ever a need to? I do things like that to challenge myself, I could do the same thing in group gear to challenge myself it would just be less mobs.

    This comparison was apples to apples I took the same toon with same AAs and the only thing that changed was the gear. This was not an elite raider compared to a group scrub it was the same char. I pointed out all of the variables in play. Though I have a feeling if I stood in front of a single mob for 3 days and came up with “near” the same results there would be some other reason the numbers are flawed with you.

    Bottom line is gear is not as big of an issue that you think it is. That was the point you missed. The average or crappy or elite player is going to see these same kinds of returns on gear. This is baseline returns I didn’t use any disc on one set that I didn’t use on the other.
    Sancus, Sheex and Cicelee like this.
  15. Coirnav Augur



    Sounds like no one likes you...
  16. Cicelee Augur

    You claim content is too hard in group gear. Player tank equips full group gear, tanks content, and you just want to dismiss it? Seriously?

    And take into account ability of players? Which players? The six magicians on a Droga raid that combined parsed less than one rogue? Is that the baseline of talent and ability of which developers should base content around?
    Sancus and Sheex like this.
  17. Triconix Augur

    Why would I - or any raider - do this? So then we would have to waste time, money, and effort constantly swapping gear sets when it comes time to raids and then back to when we want to group?

    No thanks.

    700 damage per hit on a tank with over 200k hp is significant? I could see it being significant when warriors had 10k hp back during PoP-OOW, but 700hp now is a drop in the ocean. I have clickies that are rotting in my bags that give more hp than 700hp.

    The total damage comes out to around an extra 830 damage per second based on the difference between the amount of times he was hit multiplied by the damage per hit in both parses. Again, absolutely nothing to fret over. Your natural regen will trivialize that amount or a simple click of the lifetap clicky from CoTF. If he swapped to his 2H wep to tank with raid gear he would be taking significantly more damage than the difference between group and raid gear and we all know a lot of raid tanks using 2H to tank.

    He ran the most basic tank abilities possible and nothing else. All he did was acquire aggro, which again, is a completely basic job of a tank. If a tank cannot upkept 2 10 minute discs and get aggro in the year 2018 they should not be on a computer let alone playing on EQ in the current expansion. The level of incompetence you suggest is baffling.

    Outside of VP, which is a minor annoyance getting more than a group for, there's nothing really difficult about this expansion. Give me group gear and I'd just have to rotate my defensives a bit more than I already do and swap to a SB set up rather then my normal DW set up in groups. Hell, my sham was able to face tank regular VP mobs with complete group gear, subpar augs, no special items/aa's/trophies to speak of. What exactly are tanks having issues with in this expansion?
  18. Corwyhn Lionheart Guild Leader, Lions of the Heart

    Actually no I didn't claim content is too hard in group gear. I believe I said raiders should not be the ones complaining about group content being too easy. I just get tired about people bringing out the "Easy Button" whine every time someone thinks something might need to be tuned down slightly. I guess this is my raider whine :)
  19. segap Augur


    Why should people that happen to raid not be able to have an opinion about content? Many of us play the group game. Raiding is a very small percentage of the time we spend in game. Many of us play group geared alts and more than one class. We get lots of perspective of the content and various classes. We have opinions based off that. Things we believe are easy, hard, annoying, fun, tedious, etc. Often without agreement.

    I've been an advocate to have some harder content. I don't think many people have been demanding that all the content is hard mode. I do think it's legitimate, however, to ask that people play with some modicum of ability. Driving down content to the lowest common denominator will drive away more people from boredom than it will keep of the most casual players. I do think there needs to be a spread. Some content that's easy, a big chunk that's moderate, and some that's challenging. It should all be doable in current expansion group gear. I also believe that rewards should be proportionate to difficulty/risk. Yes, some players would not be able to get the best items if they can't do the hard content.
    Sancus, Sindaiann and Cicelee like this.
  20. Natal Augur



    Nonsense. High end raiding guilds require that as an individual you enough resourcefulness to get it done yourself. It is a test, one you apparently failed. If you need mollycoddling then you are not a suitable recruit. And in any case, those guilds will only recruit people with experience anyway, and pretty much everyone with experience they want has the flag done.
    If you don't have the flag done, join a casual guild first, build up relationships (they wont be doing anything that actually requires the flag, so not having it wont be an issue), get the stuff you can get done yourself done, then ask individuals to help out with the more difficult bits. Don't ask the same person all the time and expect them to run you through the entire flagging process. I ran through the entire line with myself and two other toons easily at 105. At 110 you could probably do it all with at most 2 players.
    Let me re-iterate, if you expect people to help you, it is up to YOU to build those relationships first. Just saying "I need help" in /gu and then whining when no one volunteers is not constructive. You need to ask personally, and the people you ask need to feel some connection to you in the first place before they give up their own valuable time to do something they personally did long ago. Helping other people unprompted with their own projects without expecting something back in return goes a long way in establishing those relationships you might need later on for stuff like this.
    One more thing, if you join one of these guilds and come across as the sort of individual who is there just in order to get the minimum requirements to join an uber guild done, don't expect the long time members to be lining up to help you do that. They are not a social service.
    Zhaunil_AB likes this.