Re-tuned HAs

erm...
Theyd better!
Normally, "management" has no clue about technical aspects anyways, even if they did work there themselves at one point. The key thing for management is information, and asking the right questions to get it.
You do a code review, notice that something is not right and go to your boss in order to get some time to work on it. Boss is interested in getting "bugs" fixed, so if not told about all possible side-effects or if not taking the time to think things through (everyone has his own agenda, even in a team), what we see is what you get.

This "in order to" is a jump you make.
I can understand how something like this could come to happen - it certainly shouldn't, but it CAN.
Totally without any devious "scheme" or conspiracy.
All the more urgent then to revert things back quickly when one did, as WE feel was the case here, mess up.

Most players are going to naturally work their way to the newer expansion regardless, I don't think that a lot of players purposely stay F2P forever and sit in TDS or CotF. MMO's by design are about character progression, most people who play them - especially older ones - are playing for that exact reason: to progress. You can't do that by sitting in 5+ year old expansions for the entirety of the game.

A point I would like to pick up on, is some people are saying that the xp aspect of HAs, and I'd specify COTF HA's is not an issue caused by the change - the issue being that people cannot not go back and finish content with the benefit of better levels and gear, I would disagree.

It is an issue to many, much as the issue with re-visiting old content, is an issue to others, moreover it is I think the reason why Day Break has made the change.
Why should people gain levels easier (quicker is debatable) in old content than in new?. That is and was Day Break's mistake. Once TDS was released DB should have nerfed the xp of COTF, like they and SOE always did with previous expansions (allegedly).

Instead they increased the xp, bringing out associated quests that could be gotten alongside the COTF HA and would increase the xp when the task ended. They did this to assist people under the level max, returning, new and heroic players to get them up to speed with max level. What they didn't do was cap the level you could get the additional task.

DB did tweak this a bit, by moving the NPC who gave out the bonus tasks to POK (Clayton Teek) by reducing the number of tasks from 4 to 2 and broadening the scope of the tasks to include later expansion HA's.

It was at this point that the Gribbles set of HAs were removed from the list of bonus HA missions.

I am relatively certain that Day Break, trying to stop the flow of 'easy' xp and increasing the mob difficulty in HA's (not the first time they have done this) also managed to increase difficulty in some missions in TBM for progression and the ability to obtain collectables was unforeseen.

So again to me a solution could be;
1. Reduce the xp in COTF HAs for those over 105.
2. Do not allow any character over 105 to obtain a bonus task from Clayton Teek
3. Return mob difficulty to all HAs, prior to the change.
4. Once the level cap increases, increase the cap on the bonus tasks from Clayton Teek to max lvl -5.

A difficult to read post for me, especially since you say "no" and mean "yes" apparently.
I gather that you do think, despite what they hav esaid on the matter already, that XP was "the reason" behind this change.
You give them excluding Gribble's from the dailies and reducing the daily tasks from 4 (on the guard in TEWK) to 2 (on Teek) as an indication to that.
And again, you fall into the "trap" of thinking of gribbles when talking about HAs in general.

What i don't get is

The "it" you are referring to here is, i think, XP?
How is that an "issue to many"?
You either do not care or benefit from it by doing the tasks yourself - how can it then be an issue?
Unless of course you see people and become envious - but then it'd be an issue for a few not many, and the issue would be all theirs?
(and as was said above, while many people were grinding in Gribbles, they didn't know what they were doing much when it comes to efficiency as Gribbles were good to catch up on AAs every 3hrs but the waiting period of 2.5hrs or so to do the next set was spent unproductively, even if they did other DH-HAs in the meantime)

And further - IF (and again, that's a big if) XP would've been an or even "the" issue:
Why not merely address the HAs in question but the whole lot?
There isn't much logic in that argument i think.
Especially considering that XP in most HAs i have done hasn't really been that good as you make it sound.
(quite disappointing even, which is why most of them were done for reasons OTHER than XP in the first place!)

I think the whole case you make in that post is flawed - not only regarding the wording, but especially the point and your "getting there".
What *i* don't get is how people are so quick and "fine" with XP nerfs.
One wants to cut XP from any non-current expansion in half (which has been done anyways and was bad enough), and you want XP for all HAs reduced, when it's only less than a handful that were done for XP in the first place.
That's overreacting to me - and ignoring that, despite "exploitability", we also need some viable way for returning people (as i was) to catch up on some AAs.
That XP-reduction is acceptable (never "ok"!!!) for us that are starting a new expansion already maxed, but a kick in the butt for those that are still catching up.
So it's not acceptable at all, period.


That said, i would not mind what you wrote about daily tasks (that are a pure bonus thing in themselves).
i never took much advantage of them anyways - i do the tasks i need/want to do in the order i deem best, not depending on "the system" giving them to me.
Teek is a nice thing for the "behind" people and should be kept intact but it's also suboptimal for PL'ing.
But if they'd do as you suggest there, i am sure that they'd - once again - hit the wrong people with that stick.
So i'd rather not see that either.

Seriously? RoS is significantly better exp for both level and AA provided you have a group. Your whole argument does NOT make sense. Gribbles could easily be molo/solo and steamrolled with a group. That’s the reasons people lined up for it.

That's part of the thing though, if this was done to stem XP flow - why worry if the newest expansion is usually better. Goblins in FM were better in EoK, and from what I've heard RoS is better now. Why go through the trouble and assign resources to this change if it wasn't a significant problem? Gribbles really haven't been worthwhile if you had a real group for a while now.

What exactly does not make sense to you?
And yes i am serious about what i wrote - as i said more than once: XP is a touchy subject.
RoS "is significantly better exp for both level and AA", compared to what?

And if Gribbles - again, that's only a FRACTION of the HAs affected by this change - were easy to be molo'd/solo'd (and they were) and that THAT was the reason why people were lined up for it...
Where is the problem, if what you say is true and RoS is "significantly better XP"??
I must be some dense dwarf i guess, because i don't get that logic.

Contrary to those of you who keep saying how good Gribble-XP was, i still do not see a problem with it.
Yes Gribbles were easy. Yes they were easily chained for a lesson. Yes, over those 30mins every 3hrs (with potion, once a day with lesson) it was probably the "best" XP in the game.
So?
I am taking it slow, haven't done Gribbles for XP in a year and a half or so (since i was done with getting my most urgent tanking ones after my return) and i was near-maxed in TBM, maxed in EoK and am about to be maxed already (not two months after release) again - DESPITE the XP nerf to EoK and RoS giving XP in the first place
I am not that special, instead i think that we only have an "XP problem" when you are still catching up much.
And exactly that niche was filled by Gribbles.
I certainly wasn't bothered by people doing them (not even by seeing certain people grinding them again afte rRoS release) and i see no reason to nerf them.

But most of all i do not understand why people keep insisting to talk about Gribbles only, when this is about a change on ALL HA's.
Or are you people - those of you that keep bringing up Gribbles - insisting that ALL HA's offered similar rewards, both "raw" and as "XP over time"?
Because, surprise: That wasn't the case! Most HAs gave XP, even worse when viewed as XP over time.

Gribbles wasn't the best XP during lesson though, it was just easy and decent (reliable). I could easily do more AA during a lesson in FM (during EoK) with a group headshotting goblins - it just required a little setup, know how, and a few classes that could headshot/assassinate/decap. I'm sure people will eventually figure out ways to surpass that in RoS once they get more comfortable with the content.

Zhaunil_AB I think you misunderstand me, at last my feelings behind my post. I'm not against people using HA's to level up, I don't necessarily agree with those that think XP is the only issue. What I am saying is that is what DB thought, and were possibly influenced by those using COTF HA's to level up from 106 to 110.

Rather than reduce the amount of xp gained by those not needing to catch up in levels, and leave everything else alone, they increased the difficulty of all HAs and those missions built on the HA engine, to levels unplayable to many, unpleasant to many more.

So if people are using HA's to xp from 106 to 110, in DB's logic, they should not, hence the knee-jerk reaction.

I do not advocate a further knee-jerk reaction, to reduce the xp of HA's to nothing, but I do think, as an alternative to them being unplayable by many, they should grant less xp than they do, for players in the current max range (106 to 110).

I play HA's on my alts, to gain xp and to get collectables to try and complete their achievements.
I do not want to post the xp gains I've had because it might provoke DB or be taken out of context by some (they usually take me ages). I still think the xp should be meaningful, but not as big as it is currently.

The reason I mentioned Gribbles was to illustrate they had already had their xp nerfed by removing them from the bonus task list. People still do them, and if that is what they want to do, who is to tell them they shouldn't?

Even if they used it to level though, most people will find other places to gain XP eventually. A lot of people take the path of least resistance to level, but when it comes to AA, aug/gear farms, etc. - they will inevitably end up back in RoS.

First, let me clarify that this is from personal experience.

As to this subject, RoS, for me, has been better xp compared to everything else, even a 3-run Gribbles on LotD, but that could hinge on this: I usually have a good group that chain pulls, often multiple mobs, in places like Gorowyn, Howling Stones, and Veeshan's Peak.

So, from my personal experience, because I usually have a good group or two to hang out with, I have no problem with the xp/AAs rolling in. I think that is the biggest issue out of this whole discussion, is grouping, or lack thereof, to maximize XP potential, especially with people who have limited playtime and such.

Again, let me stress for you Zhaunil, this is from my own experience, and that I am only talking about the xp/AA aspect of your conversation.

We are specifically talking about Gribbles. The other HAs are irrelevant. RoS is better exp for most in a group.

lol remove all EXP from Gribbles they are irrelevant its all the other HA's that matter.

Except...you definitely can. Everything I could molo before, I can molo now. Your updated difficulty ratings are nonsense. Even just accounting for HAs, the difficulty of most of the expansions’ content is easier than the expansion after it. There are exceptions, but there always have been - have we forgotten Rubak Oseka? Pillars of Alra? Zeixshi-Kar’s Awakening?

Besides more HP on the mobs, the missions aren’t drastically different. And given how much the devs already seem to conflate “more HP” with “harder”, we probably shouldn’t encourage that by losing our minds about the update. Bottom line: ALL RoS content provides more challenge and greater reward than any HAs, even at 110, and even after the revamp.

October 2013

Since Ros, almost always been in Ros...best exp. Just want to go back for achieves and hero resolution and stuff after I finish all these quests relatively shortly.

Whatever they are going to do--and there's no guarantee we will like it--they better do it in the February patch. I can't see people waiting out another month for a solution on this when we don't even know much about the solution.

I don't care about Gribbles, I don't care about exp. I just want to be able to do CotF, TDS, and TBM progression at 106+ with a difficulty level that is less than doing EoK progression at 105. That really shouldn't even be something I need to ask. It should be a given. No disrespect, and no tantrum here. Please just find a solution that allows people to complete progression at an appropriate difficulty level without HA's being some bastion of easy exp.

This is dishonest. The damage on mobs also scales significantly higher now.

Yay for you, I guess? At 105 I could barely molo the first two Marla HAs in ETWK. Yellows hit pretty hard and I had to hover on Mend and Feign to stay alive with a J5 Healer on Reactive. I'm guessing you are a tank class or maybe a healer class, they have the easiest molo options. DPS classes can't just roll with a tank because they can't heal it. If I can't tank it, I can't molo it. No HA's with forced multi-mob fights. No HA's with named mobs. These weren't molo options at 105 and they are even less so now. The Tank/Healer combo for molo is inherently stronger, they can handle more, it just takes longer.

My updated rankings are accurate. You aren't taking into account the portion of the expansions that are made up of HAs. TBM and CotF have the most HA related progression, TDS is third. At 108 I could molo some minor bits of the EoK progression. I have never been able to molo any of the TBM progression, not at 105 and not at 108. CotF at 105 I could do most of ETWK, and a few select HAs. TDS I could do all of Deluge and most of Tempest Temple before getting stuck on an HA and a group mission. CotF progression was already harder than TDS due to HA scaling before this change. Now it's worse.

Maybe you missed a memo, or you aren't paying attention, but mob hp's and attacks were increased. There are reports all over the forums of what they are hitting for now versus before. As a class that could barely tank singles as it was, the damage increases were killer. There are reports of people dying to the first trash mobs in HA's now, people that ran them fine before. Whether you want to see it or admit it, this is over-tuned now.

Duh? Nobody is saying that HA's are harder than RoS now, or more rewarding. They are saying that they are harder than they should be and that the scale of difficulty from CotF -> TBM is out of line with what it was before, what it should be, and with the expansions before and after that stretch.

One of the fundamental problems with RoS is lack of molo content that be completed in a reasonable amount of time . Mobs have too many HPs and don’t drop many cash loot. Jacking the HPs for mobs 250% makes the new a chore to molo in a reasonable amount of time if you can even molo it.