Customer Service Clarification Requested: What Constitutes an Exploit?

Thank you Oakenblade, I'm sure you are trying to be helpful, but you didn't help answer my question.

I really don't know if having someone AFK in a group is ok or not.

I wish people were considerate of others, and not start out flaming others for no reason.

There are some people honestly trying to get answers to their question, and immediately get torched from others without any thought of actually trying to answer their questions.

It would be nice if we could screen out the flamethrowers, so we can see thoughtful discussion of the questions vice just flames.

Since servers went down, this thread will probably get additional posts from folks waiting for the server to come back up.

Just want to emphasize moving forward that the intention here is to get a response regarding "circumventing lockouts" as an exploit and how it relates to hunter/collection achievements and XP.

I have my own thoughts on the recent actions taken that I've expressed elsewhere, and there are other threads aimed at that topic.

Well put. I have read that some folks AFK killing have been suspended while others have not. Personally, unless the whole group is AFK killing I don't really see a big problem. But that is a players opinion.

I apologize for what seems to be a miscommunication. I am not saying that DBG intended this. I am saying that the writeups indicate the lock point so that players know when to drop, taskadd, etc. Other players let other players know this for this purpose. I am not justifying it whatsoever. The antecedent to "this" specifically refers to writeups that post when the lockouts are:

My communication skills may have failed, but what I wrote is accurate. =) Again, my apologies if what I wrote was not clear.

How can you say DBG didn’t intend for it? The fixed the issue in one aspect of the game and identified it in another and patched it live anyways.

This is how I see it. Even a 3 week ban doesn't take away what they cheated out of the game and other players(If they did things like sell spells.) They need to rollback those accounts to expansion launch to remove their ill-gotten gains. If they took a hard stance on cheating, maybe we would have less of this in the future.

I never justified what people did. Not once. I even said that those who used it knew they were doing something wrong. Go back and read my replies to this thread.

The only thing I am discussing in this thread is the fact that this is the fault of the game designer that implemented the mission in question. There has been too many "that was not intended that way" statements made over two decades for this game. The mentality of "let it be wrong for now, we'll change it later" needs to stop.

If as a game designer you put something out, you should at the very least make sure that what you intended is what you delivered. If you can't do that, then you really should find a different line of work.

I'm sick of hearing "that is not how it was intended" 2, 5, 10 years later. It's an excuse that needs to be put to rest.

Design it.

Implement it.

Test it.

Fix issues.

Test it.

Release it and stand behind what you released. Don't just say "not working as intended" WHEN ITS CONVENIENT FOR YOU.

When did I say that you don't have a choice? Nobody was made to do anything. Plenty of people chose to take advantage of a bug. I've never said nor implied that the game made anyone do it. You must be confusing me with someone else.

Again you're using an analogy with a real world item that exists and can actually be taken. You would in fact have less dog poo for your garden if someone were to steal it from you. Nobody is denying that, surely not me. It seems like you're just deflecting/changing the subject. Money obviously has value and I did say that I value being able to play a game which I paid for. The work DBG does to run a server and fix bugs is valuable and my time playing the game is valuable. If someone exploits a mission and gets an item faster they are saving time which they may value. However, nobody loses anything and there's no cost in generating said item. So there's no loss of value from anyone else. I can't think of anything else to say here. Maybe you'll start to understand this time.

Anyone whos account has been suspended is being prevented from receiving the service which they paid for. How is that hard to understand? Why do you think what you do with one character in one game should result in a service interruption for everything tied to that account? Do we have to go back to the cable example? They should fix the bug an apply any in-game penalty they see appropriate.

What did they handle wrong according to you then? Because I don't know what you're arguing about if you think this situation was handled wrong. It's the only situation I thought we were talking about.

I think that people actually getting suspended for being AFK while in a group with no tools or anything going on is very very super rare.

I think most of the time it's someone in a raid guild who actually had a group using special tools to afk farm something or some exp and got caught and needs an excuse. If they really wanted to suspend a bunch of people who are afk and getting some exp they just need to start a new progression server wait till 5am on the first day and send lots of people tells and you'll find some people that have fallen asleep or something.

Daybreak doesn't maliciously suspend and ban people, that would just cause people to quit the game. At the end of the day the goal of these rules is to keep most people playing the game. If group players get fully kitted out in all of their gear in the first month of an expansion it is much more likely they'll take a break before the next expansion. When players take breaks from the game they're more likely to just not come back at all. 20 years ago they would of rolled back the individual accounts and maybe even banned people.

Even during the time of the Mayong server when VP? was giving a few aa per kill and people were exploiting that SOE did individual rollbacks. I remember being upset because I didnt get loot that went to someone else and that person got rolled back and lost the item.

No that's just done through their incompetence.

Oh jeez, talking about rollbacks, all the complainers of cheaters got everyone rolled back. I remember when they would punish everyone and rolled back everybody.

Anyhow, I hope to see some CS answers, even if people would say don't hold your breath. It's good to get it all out in the open since many have plenty of time on their hands for communication. =) Almost 17 yrs of playing and first time being suspended for something I did not see as an exploit since we had to kill a tough named to get this supposed ill-gotten gain.

If OP tries to log in one day and is suspended, should they be surprised? I don’t think so, they can just get out the laundry list of borderline things they do in game and just narrow it down to the one that went too far. You want a nice list so you can find another 50 things that are right on the edge and get over on those.

I’m doing a hunter achievement HA right now that has a possible name I need. It doesn’t get past, dang no spawn, well ya can’t do these things back to back. I’ll be back tomorrow maybe I’ll be luckier.

You know why they have lock out timers, so ya can’t do the mission over again right away. So if you are doing it over again right away. Somethings not right and you don’t need a specific rule for your exact situation. If they do that it’s just issuing a license to steal on any of the thousands of things not totally spelled out in every conceivable situation.

Bottom line you know your cheating, they know your cheating. So don’t think it’s going to go to the Supreme Court, And get you off on a technicality.

Edit really directed to OP only not cases where someone really had no idea what happened was shady. I’m sure those exist. But ya don’t need a lawyer to know the spirit of the rules.

Points:
1> Everything has value to someone, even if it doesn't to you. You keep arguing that because it isn't "real," it therefore doesn't have value. This is philosophically incorrect. Things in this game, or any digital realm, are real to people, and therefore represent something of value.
2> Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do it. You seem to keep missing this point. You try to justify it with point 1 by saying that because, to you, it has no value, there is no harm in doing it because it won't hurt anyone. Again, this is philosophically wrong, because, again, everything has value to everyone in some way. For some, they might feel slighted by going through the correct way to obtain something, spending their time (a resource with value) to do so, then see others slide by via an exploit to get it without expending the same resource.
3> Just because your neighbor has been doing something for years doesn't mean that you won't get in trouble for doing it once.
4> I am a paying customer, therefore, I should always get what I want. Again, you are wrong on this point. You pay to use the services of the company that they provide, within the rulesets that they provide it in. You don't dictate to them what to do. When you first logged into the game, you clicked OK on the EULA. If you clicked OK without reading any of this, that is not the company's liability, it is yours. If you don't like their ruleset, then don't buy their product.
5> I paid for service, therefore I should be able to play for that time I paid. Again, break the rules, then the company has the right to suspend service to you as laid out by the EULA that you agreed to, up to termination without any refund.

Now, again for the umpteenth time, because you never seem to get past the points you want to argue with me, here is what I disagree with in regards to DBG handling of this situation:
DBG should not have en masse suspended people for this. What they should have done was issued a cease and desist to everyone, saying that anyone caught after XX/XX/2018 doing said action would then be subject to suspension. They then should lay out a timetable for when they are going to fix said issue.

At no time am I absolving DBG of their end in all of this. They should have corrected this issue long ago, but failed to do so. BUT, it does not absolve players from following rule 12 of the Everquest Rules of Conduct:

12. You will not exploit any bug in EverQuest and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug (bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits in game), either directly or through public posting, to any other user of EverQuest. You will promptly report any such bug via the in-game "/bug" command.


It is pretty straight forward there. But, like Godofwar has stated with their questions, there are some grey areas that need to be clarified by DBG as to whether they are exploits or not, so that this situation doesn't happen again.

A very, very long time ago - I don't remember the expansion, someone found a place to kill current content mobs where the game pathing couldn't find a way to get to the player. They could stand in one spot and kill for hours without taking a single hit. There were still GMs on back then, and some people got penalized for it. The GMs banished some from the zone, others got suspended. The word was given very clearly to the players then that SOE would not tolerate people using game mechanics for risk-free gains.

Not to say the players couldn't explore ways to do things unintended, but risk-free was a buzzword. Game rewards were intended to come with some risk.

When I was kiting in a VoA zone, I found a spot with a steep rise up to a couple mobs. If I snared those mobs and ran too fast off the rise, the mobs quit following, lost agro, and turned a different direction. I found out it was happening when a mob came out of nowhere and started beating on me during a med break. Turns out the mobs that lost agro would eventually "tunnel" through a zone line into another part of the zone and then wander the long way back.

Since I was a necro aggro-kiting, this was actually a bad thing. I needed to keep the mobs close and chasing me so the pet and dots could finish it off. I found by coming down the rise and not just off of it using lev, the mobs stayed after me. If I had used the mobs turning away as a mechanic to avoid getting hit while killing them, that would be an exploit.

if you get something you should have to pay something for (time, mana, hit points, access risk) without having to pay for it, that's an exploit. If you can do that for years without getting into trouble for it, it is still an exploit not a valid game mechanic. If you think no one will pay attention to the metric that the VP key population is 2 months ahead of plan, you aren't thinking things through. The people shorting this mission for armor and keys were playing with something that was being measured.

I feel bad for the people banned, but at least some of you got used to doing things that were an exploit. I suspect DB didn't do anything about it because it wasn't affecting game metrics. Once it upset the RoS locked zone access schedules, DB decided to put a stop to it. They also generated a list of who had been getting chest drops without appropriate timers and punished them.

That you hadn't been warned in the past didn't change that you were exploiting a hole in the system now.

What does that have to do with anything? You're just making things up to argue about. I originally replied to your post where you compared the situation to an ATM that gave you free money. That is theft because it's a real item which is taken from one person and given to another. In EQ nobody is losing out if one person exploits and receives extra spells, for example. They 'cost' nothing to make. That's where the value comes in. Nobody at DB has to spend extra time creating those spells. There's not a limited supply. Nobody else is prevented from receiving spells of their own, etc.

Now, that doesn't mean that the spells themselves don't have value to the individual player. I never said they didn't. But you don't judge losses based on personal value something has to the offending party. DB shouldn't penalize you via suspension which costs you money for something that does not cost them money. Is that clearer? I mean really... It's like if I stole a TV which I personally valued at a million dollars because I just love it so much while the actual store price is only $500. Then in court I get fined for the million because it's what I valued it as.. that would be extremely silly. That value isn't something you consider at all.

I never once suggested or implied that you 'should' do something because you can. I've been very clear about this. I'm taking a 100% neutral position on the morality of exploiting a bug in a video game which has no impact on other players. I don't care either way and I don't think you 'should' do it because you can. Stop attributing that to me.

I never made this point either. I don't think you should get what you want. At least 3 times now I've proposed that an in-game penalty should be applied in this exploit case. I suggested making spells no drop, I've suggested deleting VP keys, and I've even suggested that rollbacks make more sense than an account suspension. Please read this time.

That would be more fair than what they have done but I still think there's better and more appropriate penalties than suspension/theft of your money.

What did they actually gain though to warrant such a drastic rollback?

For the group geared player - gear that still puts a character at a severe disadvantage when compared against last expansions raid gear.
For the raid geared player - one part of their vp key quest that only takes a few days to key a full group anyway.
Players that actually turned a profit by selling gear or spells - yeah I could see that but that would require 1000s of man-hours to prove, which they don't have. According to some posts, I should have made enough krono to pay for my account for a year, yet I haven't sold a single item to anybody in probably 12 months.

You would be incorrect actually! I have been playing this game since 1999. I have never dropped a mission, task, HA... ever, to avoid lockout timers. Nor has my husband. Why? Because there is not an item or mob in this game that would inspire or motivate me to exploit the tasks like that.

I do not need anything in this game that badly. But could it be your one of those people that say... well in game this is my alter ego and I am entitled to act 100% differently when I am logged in than I am in real life?

My account was banned one time and I went through the process to clear my name through Customer Support. I was pissed that I got banned temporarily because I did absolutely nothing wrong.

A scammer player created a character that was very close to my main characters name. That person proceeded to steal millions of platinum from multiple players by pretending to sell them LON Loot cards. He logged out and stated he was getting on my main with the item and he never logged back in.

Customer service pulled all my logs... and I have 3 accounts, and they saw that I never logged into the game for that entire week.... not on my 3 accounts nor my husband's 3 accounts and I was cleared.

If you are completely innocent of what you are being accused of then you should have no reason not to take it up to customer support and fight for the suspension to be removed.

The fact that you feel the need to come on here and say 100% of the players on this game have dropped tasks to reset task timers, as you are some sort of authority on the manner is laughable.

Amazing that some players understand right from wrong and decide to NOT exploit things in game.

Ahh, so that is what all of this is boiling down to, the perception that DBG is out stealing someone's money because they suspend them for breaking their rules.

You seem to think that just because someone pays to play, they have the right to play, or get their money back, even if they break the rules. But you don't have a right, you are paying for the privilege to play EQ, and use DBGs servers, and their software, etc. That is why they have rules laid out on governing how you can and can't use them.

Pretty clear that nothing I say on this matter is going to convince you that this is not the case. You get caught breaking the rules that you agreed to follow when purchasing/playing the game, DBG has the right to enforce its disciplinary process as lined out. This includes keeping you from play time that you bought, up to and including termination of your account with no refund. How they choose to handle their process may be debatable, as in this case, but in the end, they have the legal ground to stand on.

I haven't logged in for a few months and played (didn't buy ROS either) but I'd like to throw in a nonsensical comment about being 105, going to VT, and not being able to get past doors so I could collect clickies for giggles. Now I'll have to seriously level a rogue, for pete's sake.

Well, back to doing this Spectre/Meltdown patching. Hope y'all get your unsuspends in order and get back playing.

Play a different game then. This is EverQuest, not WoW or some other high budget enterprise. Either accept it for what it is or move on. At some point it will probably become too much for me and when it does I won't be making garbage posts on this forum about it. I save my ire for blatantly obvious things, not a bug that every player in the game knows not to exploit but some do anyways because they think they are slick.

Your last line is completely inane. Even a novice knows that the team doesn't control when an expansion is launched. They also know that it isn't as easy to fix crap in this game as some like to pretend it is. I get that some people want a perfectly test product that works 100%. If you are looking for that maybe it is time you canceled your sub and invested your money in another game more to your liking. It will save you some heartache.