Lack of Progression of Mid Teir Guilds

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Mulleteer, Jul 26, 2017.

  1. baider Elder


    Wow, so what you're saying is mid tier guilds should just have to wait a year to be able to finally complete raids of the now past expansion? That is terrible and really does not add much enjoyment to the game. A lot of mid tier guilds as I am sure you are aware, will have full group armor pretty early on in the expansion as they arent low tier or beginner/leveling guilds. So for like EoK, that gives them basically 3-4 raids to farm upgrades off of, and as EoK is structured you have only 1-2 non visibles per raid target.

    So I ask, who are we trying to make happy here? The 100 players on a server in the top tier guilds? and of those 100, who are REALLY going to be so unhappy if raids are scaled only a slight amount to allow mid tier guilds more raid content? That seems like a VERY low number of target customers to make happy vs. making raids more accessible mid expansion for more people, and it will be a heck of a lot more than 50-100 players per server, and on top of THAT the players who do get all bent out of shape if raids are made more accessible to lower guilds will most likely get over it quickly and not quit the game.

    How many people do you think in the mid and low tier guilds have quit the game because of lack of progression or raids their guilds are doing? I can guarantee you it is a pretty damn large number and probably one of the leading causes of players quitting the game now.
    Shadva Del`Shai likes this.
  2. wingz-83 Augur

    You want me to have proof that the attitude of "Players should suffer" in a videogame for entertainment might be detrimental to said game and players of said game? Um, ok. How about the fact that this discussion is even happening? If it was all great and people liked to suffer then this wouldn't be an issue. Perhaps it's not an issue for you personally but for the overall health of the game though? There's a reason that the new progression servers are popular. People probably aren't suffering through them, they're likely enjoying them.
    Shadva Del`Shai likes this.
  3. smash Augur

    Imo there is 1 EOK raid that could be changed.

    That one is Chardok 2, the Queen. For some guilds its the gatekeeper raid.

    Basically I do not find it too hard, however it is too random.

    You can get a version that is snooze mode, but you might also get one that is pure hell ( waves of warcasters).

    Imo, it need to change by removing the randomness.

    It shall still be 4 waves, and 4 types of waves. But the order of those 4 waves can be random.
    So this week you get warcasters first, next week you might them last.

    Also EoK raids are missing the critical info, about that now xx achievent are no longer possible. Something TBM raids had.
    Jhenna_BB likes this.
  4. Jhenna_BB Proudly Prestigious Pointed Purveyor of Pincusions

    You have to be new to Everquest, it's the only way to explain you're being offended by the notion that mid tier guilds have to wait a year to beat all of the current raids. It's that or you've had your blinders on and ignored this condition of Everquest for the past 13ish years it's been going on. Right or wrong, it's what's been going on. Sometimes the truth hurts.
    Annastasya likes this.
  5. MyShadower All-natural Intelligence

    Maybe the game is not for you if you suffer while playing it. Should baseball implement field goals because some people like to kick but just want to play baseball? A game presents a certain challenge, accept that challenge or find another more suitable to you. Even if they did lower the difficulty of events or make new events for fewer players and/or less skilled players, there would still be threads like this.
  6. baider Elder


    I understand this elitist attitude, but it doesnt help keep the game alive. I am not worried about getting my own gear or beating raids fast, I am worried about guilds falling apart even more than they are now so that there are 1-2 raiding guilds left on each server because people keep quitting. That is exactly what is going to happen if they keep making raids difficult enough that only 1-2 guilds per server farm them in current era. It is easy to take your perspective as an end game raider, but put yourself in someone elses shoes who is not, and there are many reasons for it like people who work alternating shifts or work hours where they cant make night time raids everyday, but they still are VERY skilled players with high play times but are forced to join mid tier guilds.
    This game is NOT fun when you kill lcea, droga, and prince every week and thats it like most mid tier guilds have been doing and will only be doing for months.

    I have played EQ since 2001 so no I am not new but neither is EQ and its losing steam and its going to be effecting the mid tier guilds the most.
    Shadva Del`Shai likes this.
  7. Jaerlyn Augur

    Given just how much the game has changed since the start... it basically HAS added field goals to baseball. Without even discussing it being better or worse, people who played in the original Kunark, and skipped until this version.. wouldn't even recognize a lot of the systems used, or how combat flows.
  8. Bamboompow Augur

    Been reading over this thread more in depth and it seems all the elite folks seem to be placing the blame squarely at the feet of mid-tier guilds and their un-motivated skill-less slacker player base. That or telling those who are frustrated to jump ship, never mind addressing the issues.

    OK. So it has been established that it is NOT the game's fault....other than its age. Any suggestions on how to motivate them? Maybe create a poll? Ask them why they don't log and why they are lazy when they do?

    Some empirical data might be helpful. Or some logical, reasonable suggestions. The alliance solution is one thing, but guilds do not always mesh well together with command structures, loot systems etc.

    Otherwise, I have nothing other than create some fun content that is challenging but doesn't require 54 people.
  9. MyShadower All-natural Intelligence

    So the solution to keep the game alive is to reduce the challenge? What about those that quit because they do not find much of a challenge in EQ, just endless repetition? Quit because they do not have the time to invest in EQ to accomplish all that they want? Quit because they do not like the way the changes are going for their preferred class? Quit because they played too much EQ and lost their job so they cannot afford to play EQ anymore? Is every quitter just because the raiding is too hard because you need to get 54 people willing to fully pay attention long enough to run through the spoiler they can read and/or view?

    Regardless of how many quit playing, the bigger driver is more likely stagnation of actually new to the game players. A lot has changed in 18 years.

    You can label the attitude how you like. My personal view is EQ has little challenge outside of beating an event for the first time without any prior knowledge of it. The bulk of the game is just repeating the same actions without much thought.
  10. segap Augur


    The raids themselves are not that difficult. The Kar Zok aura is the only thing I would give legitimate discourse to being a bit too harsh for lower tier guilds. The problem is it's getting harder and harder for many guilds to keep healthy rosters. The player population is shrinking and it's eating away at the bottom as the higher tier guilds cannibalize to fill their attrition (has always happened, but it's to the point that many servers are running out of players to fill raid rosters beyond the top guild).

    They need to look at how to maintain server health. I don't think adjusting raids to be easier should be the first option. It's how can they improve player retention and is there anything they can do in regards to servers that are less healthy than others. Or is there a way they can help concentrate players with similar play times/schedules to keep from bleeding players that don't fit the typical raid schedule. They need to stop nerfing players (justified or not) during the time of year that population always dips. Hitting people when they're already down and fighting to survive is idiotic. And they need to realize that busy tasks like doing every trade skill recipe only keeps a small portion of the player base engaged. It actually turns off quite a few. They need to have better ideas for keeping people engaged during the summer that is more inclusive of the overall population.
  11. kizant Augur

    I really don't understand all this talk about an 'elitist' attitude. What's elitist about wanting a little bit of content that isn't insanely easy?

    And trust me, if you're judging things by how fun they are, it's hardly a treat getting to do T3 raids in EOK. I have fun doing T2 and droga but everything else is either boring, annoying, or both. I actually have more fun trying to beat Lady of Life on Test with 30 people and failing after 40 minutes than I do in EOK T3. Although, I have been told I'm crazy.. Still, the only problem I see is they should have had a 3rd event in T1 to give you more to do but then more content is always a plus.
  12. smash Augur

    Sure you through it, but there some who are not through, not even past the 50% mark, and its like 9 months since expansion got out.
    Have they not deserved to see most of it ?

    Normally by now, there has been 1 or 2 small changes of the events by now, but so far there not been any, as far I know.
    I dont think big changes are needed, but a slight one as I mentioned in earlier post about randomness in Chardok 2, the queen, would do Wonders.
  13. Bamboompow Augur

    Is it easy because it's easy or is it easy because whom you participate in it with render it easy?
  14. Seldom Augur

    Much of the problem with mid tier guilds being unable to progress is the same reason it's always been; Poor Leadership. Good through elite caliber players are rarely willing to put up with that for long periods. More often than not in these types of guilds, poor players are allowed to stay terrible with no repercussions(removal,negative dkp etc) and good players are not clearly rewarded(dkp bonus, priority on alt gear etc). Strategies from raid forces that are clearly better are not properly utilized even though they have been made available for several months. Alliances are not formed with old rival guilds due to pride or whatever other reasons. Pickup raids aren't done to lore new talent or guests. The list goes on and on. I'm all for raids being adjusted at critical points in an expansion, but realize it will "never" correct those type of issues though. Unhealthy live servers should take note from the clearly more successful ones; Xegony, Bristle, Cazic and the like. It's not a coincidence
    feeltheburn and Maedhros like this.
  15. kizant Augur

    How does 'deserve' even enter into it? I've never once bought a video game and felt that I deserved anything but the ability to play it. Do I always manage to complete everything? No. Some things just take more effort than I'm willing to put in.

    A little of both but it is tough to call something 'hard' when there's little to no chance of failing even when people badly mess up or you don't even have a full raid. If I were to classify the events I'd say 2 or 3 of them are moderate and the rest are too easy. And I hope you're not under the impression that guilds that can do all the events don't have any slackers. They just have a few less than average..
    Maedhros likes this.
  16. Bamboompow Augur

    This discussion is really...kinda over. No middle ground. Just like in the Real World. So lets just all tell each other to EF off and watch Rome burn.
  17. Bamboompow Augur

    Why say that? Mainly if the solution is that raiding means having to be a bunch of hard cases and treat the game as something that is more unforgiving than..lets say...a job... then you won't sell it to lesser guilds. Most of those Mid Tier and below guilds are a bit more family oriented.It won't fly to have to kick out a family member or friend because they won't make parse. That's just a D move for a more family conscience guild.

    The Elite guilds probably are not even that harsh. Then again they don't have to be. Most have them have been around at least a decade and have very concise rules, organization and way that loot is done...which are strictly adhered to. That's what make them win as much as anything else. Again, they are brands. You buy a Ford and you get what you expect. You buy a Bugatti and you get what you expect. Its all pretty well established. People put much thought into this crap and if that is what you are shopping for then you know what you are getting into.

    Even then there has to be some give sometimes.

    Anecdote:

    There was this guild on The Rathe. It sounded like a rip off of something Latin in name. It was conceived of by the more hard core players of a certain mid tier family guild that wanted to crack down on basically everything and go hard core. Basically lots of fines etc for not meeting attendance and performance metrics...which were "TBD". The leadership of this family guild said no, that is not what we do. So these individuals left, and took the bulk of the raid force with them, and then started to prey on the better raiders of the other mid tier guilds on the server, without a care if those guilds ultimately died. Their rules were basically everything a frustrated "Elite Player stuck in a family guild" would ever want. Lots of expectations and penalties for poor performance etc. Review tribunals for not making parse etc.Lots of easy ways to get DKP taken away and maybe even booted. It was going to be a new Elite guild to challenge the top 10.

    The thing is...they failed. It was all stick and practically no carrot.

    So it is not as easy as just saying "Be awesome....or ELSE".
  18. MyShadower All-natural Intelligence

    The death of EQ has been proclaimed often enough to be filed under the "fake news" category. Meanwhile, DB is making bank on players that truly desire to keep replaying old content. I suspect they make money on "new" content or they would not still be releasing expansions but there is so much middle ground between "play EQ all by yourself" and "OMG this stuff is impossible without 54 elite players."
  19. Reynen Journeyman

    I say that you're making up that people "suffer" and that they're a relevant number, if that happens, that's why you need proof of what you claim. You want to compare how many people still are on the normal servers vs the people on progression servers? Because that won't end as you planned for you and your point lol.

    You lack understanding of the numbers and what happens in this game. There are not just 100 players finishing raids within a reasonable time, most of the raid guilds are finishing expansions without too much trouble. You vastly overestimate the midtiers and underestimate the people raiding in good conditions.

    When are people like you going to understand they're wrong? 10 years at the very least of being prooved wrong, 10 years of people like you bringing that up. At some point shouldn't you realise you're out of touch with reality and what you predict never happen and therefore, you should refrain from posting this kind of non sense?
  20. Bamboompow Augur

    See above. Mostly my post was a reaction to Seldom which basically say that you need to treat people like Brown Word to get them to change. If that is the answer than yes..screw it..let it burn.

    The thing is the big guilds probably don't have to be jerks to people to get them to do what they need to do. Their membership want to be there and are motivated by wanting to succeed for their own enjoyment.