Test Update 04/12/17 - Patch Notes and Discussion

This nerf this and nerf that whining has gotten way out of control.

Yep. Vegas was boring except for the Grand Canyon this week.

So then how many undead raid mobs do we burn, and for how many of those did you have proper ADPS? I'm thinking the number of parses that fit those conditions are pretty nonexistant, and we have had paladins with very respectable burst numbers on the one undead mob I can think of (that golem on Enslver) even in tank groups.

I think the paladin nerfs are excessive, but "I'm in RoI and I don't make parses" probably doesn't inherently discredit the DPS paladins could do on burst prior to these changes.

ADPS does very little for paladin burns.

We don't get almost anything from bards, for example. We are actually the most independent dps burns of all three tanks because our things don't stack with adps (and with upcoming changes pretty much nothing will stack except stuff we'll never get like enchanter caster stuff).

As an example, on a parse dummy, hitting from the back (81% accuracy), for the duration of righteous procs (big dps boost, so parsing longer will lower dps, but I'll be doing that too in order to compare), 109 seconds with varlous, intensity, full procs, no glyph though, testing to check difference once righteous gets back up, I did 280k dps (WAY higher than what it used to be due to proficiency of course, even accounting for gear changes). So that is essentially near peak dps (hedgebrew on, 101 total casts during that time period, 36 nukes, casting on cooldown). Now consider that the peak dps is for a shorter duration.

Then add in more time and it collapses. This was an undead mob. Against a live mob it drops precipitously.

I'm going to do a few scenarios (front/back), but the reality is, paladin burst dps is not great. Its pretty good for 1 minute, mediocre compared to other melee for 2 minutes, its really good without adps compared to melee, but in real situations, adps or otherwise, it blows.

If valorous and pureforge were 10 minute recast timers, then yeah, they would be overpowered, but they are closer to 20 minutes.

"But until they fix our aggro (I suggest severe neutering of sk/war ae aggro generation and then upgrade more traditional single/ae aggro tools for all three tanks to compensate),"

So I demand that warriors be able to life tap, cast spells and also heal themselves whenever they want! < sarcasm > Man, all tank classes are supposed to be different. Some better at this and some better at that.

Do a test with zerk aura and sham 2.0 with a glyph.

Maybe I am just exceptionally lucky, or maybe the quality of ROI paladins dropped off when Dale and Shiftie quit, IDK.

But yes the nerf is complete BS given the context of other classes (tanks even) and I think if we are going to have a long time ability changed, a discussion about possible changes would be nice.

Yep i would love to be able to cure all raid members

Why does another class need nerfed to buff yours? if you want paladin AoE agro improved you're more likely to get that without trying to nerf the other 2 tanks. Based on the patches anymore they would probably nerf all 3 tanks in response.

Throw in a few group buffs and nukes as well.

In all fairness, I underestimated how much dps the adps added, but keep in mind this is in guild hall with nothing fading so all stuff is on full time. Also, didn't realize dummy wasn't set up as undead (was last time I used it, guess you have to turn that on/off). So this is LIVE MOB dps peak values for a max geared paladin.

Would be interesting to use same parameters for other melee, and will be interesting to compare non-burn dps later on. About 90% of dps was from slashes, so our spell based dps has seriously degraded (using 6 spell nukes + DP), or more likely, shows how ridiculously overpowered 2h proficiency is.

Raid buffs, intensity, everything going, solo otherwise, 280k dps (accuracy 81.0%)

Add in Shaman, 360k dps (accuracy 87.7%)

Add in Bard, 460k dps (92.4% accuracy)

Add in Berserker, 530k dps (92.7% accuracy)

Turn the mob into an undead one, 640k dps (93.3% accuracy)

This is all just for reference if anyone wants to parse their class. None of this changes the fact that if there actually are events when I can dump spell gems for all dps mode (like chardok 3 boss part), I still am not coming close to real dps. Sancus may be able to pull up the parse from last week on that event and see where I was, as I honestly don't join the dps channel.

And here is the same buffs from all those adps WITHOUT valorous rage going:

undead: 330k dps (94.0% accuracy)

So over the course of it being active, valorous is almost doubling our dps.

Really is too late for me to do more, but last one is all that adps (shaman, bard, zerker) minus valorous AND pureforge on a live mob:

150k dps (93.3% accuracy)

So without valorous or pureforge running, but with adps we never actually get, with an accuracy you're never getting in real life, paladins in the best gear and burning everything else do 150k dps.

So pretty easy to see how the dps plummets on events once those 2 abilities fade. Without adps i bet the dps is close to 80k (active dps). That also is with intensity going btw, which would also be gone after the first minute.

Anyway, those are some numbers to play with. Take them as you will.

Learn to read please, seriously. The major problem paladins have in raid settings right now is WE CANNOT OUT AGGRO THE PASSIVE AE AGGRO GENERATED BY THE OTHER TWO TANKS.

Our aggro stinks, yes, and we need more, as some dps classes can take it from us from a pure aggro generation on single target, but that isn't the issue. We can taunt, we can ageless, we can pile on aggro to offtank something and get a head start and not lose it to dps. But we are losing it to other TANKS who are simply using their own tools and aren't even targeting our mob.

Harmonious is broken for SK and Warriors. It needs to be fixed. Period.

What exactly do you suggest that paladins ask for to fix the problem that you buff yourself with something that passively ae aggros everything on your extended target list with more aggro than I can generate chaining 7 aggro abilities on cool down? Its broken. It needs to be fixed.

87k dps (86.8% accuracy), live mob, from behind, no valorous/pureforge/intensity, standard raid buffs, nothing else.

Adding it all up, the incoming nerf to valorous rage will presumably drop paladin peak dps by about 1/3rd, and over the course of 5 minutes, probably around 20%. Then 2h proficiency is being reduced as well, so guess around 30% overall reduction in dps for paladins, but that 2nd nerf is hitting all tanks.

It's a PBAE damage spell, which means it is not going to be used on any raid that has adds that need to be controlled. (Enchanters tend to get a little upset with people waking their mobs.)
It does max 4% agro increase, not exactly world shattering.
It triggers when an SK gets a single target heal (who heals SKs ? )

But sure, nerf it because Paladins want to do more agro than SK and Warrior as well as healing and curing and etc, etc ....

It doesn't "passively ae agro", it triggers when we receive a single target heal.
So, basically you want to be able to agro better than SK/Warrior, plus heal better than SK/Warrior, plus buff better than SK/Warrior, plus cure better than SK/Warrior.....

Angahran, thanks for the lols of the night. Might want to read the real spell data for that Harmonius or better yet actually play the game and know what it does lmao. Not even going to point out all the flaws, smh

Don't forget dps...

What does it have to do with this patch ? All tanks are seing a DPS nerf (and a mitigation one which is worse for tanks overall imo), and warriors / SK aren't responsible of this. Your anger should be directed to the few whiners that call to nerf classes and are the one responsible of your paladin DPS nerf. That's amazing all tanks are getting a nerf and instead of getting united on this some tanks call to nerf other tanks, like this patch is not enough.

It's only hitting warriors, paladin / SK remains unchanged

I have yet answered to this in another thread. The problem is not the tool, but the player using the tool.
In raid situations that need to have one tank on one add, your SK and Warriors should not use their AE Harmonious. That's as simple as this. Also, your warriors should use their single target Harmonious which has a heal attached to it better than the AE one which doesn't heal the warrior. I rarely use my AE Harmonious, and never in raids.

Glad you reassessed paladin burst dps numbers, as I was specifically going to post our paladins "currently" burst short duration undead events at nearly 700kdps.

If you test Harmonious Disruption currently, go pull a bunch of mobs, have the enchanter CC em, have harmonious on and start single target killing mobs next to the CC ones, you will see very fast that the current version DOES NOT break mezz. Unless the SK was cycling targets on CC mobs while receiving heals, which would be stupid.

Look at the spell data closely, the damage component of the spell is SINGLE TARGET.

Also if enchanters actually flip out over a broken mezz instead of just re-mezzing it, they are absolutely insane. Unless its a CC event with constant mezz breaking, and even then I would probably just yell once and if it continued, fine the person.


[50109/13652] Harmonious Disruption Rk. III
Classes: SHD/103
Skill: Defense
Mana: 4479
Target: Self
Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes
Focusable: Yes
Casting: 0.5s, Rest: 1.5s
Duration: 2m (20 ticks), Extendable: Yes, Dispelable: Yes
Max Hits: 48 Matching Spells
1: Cast: Precise Disruption III on Hit By Spell
2: Limit Target: Single
3: Limit Effect: Current HP
4: Limit Type: Beneficial
5: Limit Min Level: 96
6: Limit Max Level: 110 (lose 100% per level)
7: Limit Max Duration: 0s
8: Limit Min Mana Cost: 10
9: Limit Min Value: 5000 Current HP SPA
10: Limit: Same Caster
Text: You attune your body to incoming heals.
Places a disruptive mantle on yourself which will cause you to automatically attempt to lifetap your target and incite aggression in all enemies around you whenever another caster's heals (between levels #5 and #6) land on you. This mantle will fade after %z or after you have attempted %L lifetaps.

[50112] Precise Disruption III
Mana: 10
Target: Single
Range: 50'
Resist: Magic -50
Focusable: Yes
Reflectable: No
Casting: 0s
Recourse: Disruptive Recourse III
1: Decrease Current HP by 20668
2: Cast: Expansive Distraction III
Text: Your heartbeat is disrupted.
This spell pierces your target, dealing #1 damage and reflecting a healing recourse. It will also trigger a wave of hatred, inciting anger in all enemies around you.

[50130] Expansive Distraction III
Mana: 10
Target: Caster PB
AE Range: 50'
Resist: Unresistable
Focusable: Yes
Reflectable: No
Casting: 0s
Hate Mod: +14641
1: Increase Current Hate by 4%
Text: Your attention is drawn by a distraction.
Increases the amount of hatred enemies have for you by #1%.

[50115] Disruptive Recourse III
Mana: 10
Target: Single
Range: 300'
Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes
Focusable: Yes
Casting: 0s
1: Increase Current HP by 13435
Text: Your disruption heals you.
Heals you for up to @1 points of damage.


In the interest of the Paladins however, they do have a gripe with this. They have an extremely hard time with AE aggro as their tools are limited. Expansive Disruption makes it hard for Paladins to combat that aggro generated on each incoming heal vs every mob within that range of the SK.

I said this before, SKs have enough AE aggro abilities. Just make this spell only generate hate on a single target, removing that passive aggro generated on AE mobs.

Also, tanks can just be smart and as a SK not use this on events with heavy adds that are being managed by multiple tanks. Warriors can choose just to use the single target Harmonious (unless they want AE aggro) and Paladins can continue to use theirs without causing any issues (unless you are trying to position adds that are stunnable), but hey......that would make sense right?