New players - pick a knight if you aren't a boxer

Hmm.. what is warrior auto attack vs pally auto attack with same stance with no adps or spells ?

If you mean an only slightly higher melee dps that is overcame with pets and procs, then technically yes - which is how it has always been. But I am assuming with a fair amount of certainty that that is not what he had in mind. SKs most certainly did not give up melee dps to gain spell dps; not only would that be counter productive, but it was never designed that way, outside of the slightest of margins. It certainly was not the tradeoff made when we picked the class; check starting skillcaps, relative pet value, etc.

Pretty darned close these days.

I think if we're talking innate Warrior advantages through things like swing rate / cripple AA / ISS etc vs passive Knight stuff (procs mostly) I'm pretty okay with things being a wash for the most part with 1H or 2H DPS. We all have a couple of things we can do in tankmode for extra DPS without too many tradeoffs for the most part.

But now that Proficiencies are shared, Warrior Dual Wield DPS needs to come up - certainly above where our 2H is today. It'll need a 2HS mod for our skill attacks also. Ultimately it should probably a midpoint between Warrior 2H and SK 2H plus DPS stuff (fast refresh)

No idea on pallies but as an SK w Curtaincaller, I sit around 17k dps (2her prof, standard buffs), which is also what I seen high end Warriors do with a 1her & shield (def prof, standard buffs, no stomp/etc). SK 1her is much, much less.

Are you talking group or raid and sustained or burst? With auto attack and no spells or adps we are sitting around 15 - 17k . I was sustaining with my warrior mostly auto attacking with a bard for around 19 - 20 k in a good group we should be sustaining around 30k playing just the warrior with 1hand and shield. I could be low by 5 kish it has been awhile since I went out grouping it also could be a little lower with the nerf that happened when stances were changed .

And Xanathol you have always had lower melee . We flurry more, We crit more, and we had melee burns before you guys had any resemblance of a burn. Look at the history of aa we have always been ahead in melee oriented dps aa.

In 1 hander ? About half. 2hander is closer but still warrior have edge on auto attack. Unless you are talking undead, than I have no idea I'd have to parse that.

Thanks for your feedback there, but the problem is not in group, it's in raid.
And more specifically Raid Boss MT, where warriors should have a solid edge on knights as it's warrior class niche in raid.
I don't say Knights should be destroyed against Raid Bosses, but it should be more difficult for them to do it and the actual % of Def Proficiency given to them doesn't allow this.

What about AAs? And other gear? Assuming sword and board (so tanking). Lets say war has Spike of Lasting Vapor (169+20/24) and PAL has Interrogator's Pestle (319+13/34)

So WAR ratio is 7.04 to 7.88 (the elemental DMG is RNG)
PAL ratio is 9.38 to 9.76

Now with Shield Specialist (and Improved)
WAR have an 85% increase so it becomes
312 to 349 (I think it happens after ele DMG is factored in, at least that's what matched my parses)
Ratios now 13 to 14.54

PAL (and SHD) have just 25% increase from their Shield Specialist
398 to 415
Ratios now 11.71 to 12.21.

So assuming crit rates are the same, hSTR, fero, etc. WAR should probably have better DPS from straight melee. There are definitely more AAs that need to be accounted for, but whatever.

That's what I've seen - S+B for a war w/ just auto attack around 17k and running in a group, using stomp, etc, 27k. As I mentioned, an SK with a 2her is at 17k, running things in a group, that bumps up to ~20k. That's 'every mob usable' stuff for each in the group settings; no burns.

Your 'always' apparently doesn't go back far enough. Original EQ, weapon skill caps were the same but wars had 10? iirc to offense and could crit while sks had a necro pet (actual same pets, just later in level) and eventually self buff procs. Kunark, Velious, same thing. Luclin added AAs to wars and PoP caught knights back up. You do have a small higher crit rate and flurry rate, but again, compare the difference in melee to what sks got in procs and pets; outside of a handful of times where it has been messed up, the gap was covered & overcame in favor of sks.

As for discs, it is true that sks were screwed from day 1 when discs came out - wars & pallys got crit & cripple discs and sks of all classes did not. In fact, Unholy Aura was one of sks first discs and was a HT focus. I'm still trying to get sks a crit & cripple disc - it is beyond ridiculous that we don't have one.

You'd rather have Holyforge than Visage of Death?

Hmm that is kinda strange even though at like lvl 13 we received dual wield and no one had discs except fearless when we had melee dps discs. Were'nt we also the only tank that could critical and crippling blow in original eq ?

I have never been out sustained by knights maybe out burned but as far back as I remember looking at parses we have always led in sustained dps and I started using a parser in velious.

35% damage mods don't result in a 58% boost in DPS, neither in theory or practice.

No it's not. You traded "some" amount of melee mastery for all the SK things. There's no promise anywhere that you get to be tank++ if you're not a vegetable

really then what did we trade it for? Not that I expect a response that is rational from you, I just think I will find it amusing.

That you need an enumeration of SK powers from others explains much.

I want to see your "view" of sk powers, we all have different views and give different weights to abilities. I am having a boring day, I really need some amusement.

"All the SK things" = 784 Balance Units.

Ah now I understand, so I gave up 216 balance units to suck. Darn warriors baseline of 1000 units. Thank you for clarifying that. I will reroll (start playing again) my war so that I don't suck any more.

Now you're just making up numbers completely.