New players - pick a knight if you aren't a boxer

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Time Burner 2, Feb 18, 2016.

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  1. Makavien Augur

    Um I said that did? I said specifically the only time it devalues self healing is being one rounded?
    I'm not fully geared either and I tank like a boss so you are doing it wrong.
    Hold your mouth different=P
  2. sojero One hit wonder



    Please inform me on how to do it right master, I so need to know.
  3. Makavien Augur

    Lets wait for a sheex meme for that.
  4. sojero One hit wonder

    I don't think his meme will tell me, please do instruct me on how I am doing it wrong.
  5. Makavien Augur

    Well you face the mob like this and then you hit along with and then you shout .

    But on a serious note I could only tell you if I was there able to see what is happening . I didn't specifically mean you in that context.

    And if you think I am mad or serious half the time you really don't get me the only time I really comment here is when people forget things you know like self healing.
  6. shiftie Augur

    Healing in a raid setting is hard to calculate as it pertains to self healing vs outside casts

    There is
    self healing - useful
    Self healing - superfluous
    Self healing - wasted

    An example if I click LOH And time it wrong due to already incoming heals
    If I have 100k hp and I click LOH at 30% health with heals from the priest team rolling in. At that instant I have a potential of either landing a 70k heal or 0 or somewhere in between. For each tic of the heal over time I have the same scenario. Now for a class that can't heal they will argue that the mere potential to cast it is better than having 0 potential to cast it. The problem is that you cannot place a value of x on what might occur.

    One of the problems of knight self healing parses is that A LOT of that healing is done passively over the course of an event or fight. As a paladin
    I'd have
    Ward of tunare
    Promised line
    Steely if I chose to use it
    Sk epic/cotf click
    Mark if I chose to use it
    Bp click current
    Bp click from anguish
    Shining from cleric
    Lassitude proc from shaman
    Blessing of life
    Blessing of light (stun proc) going off from stuns cast/mm bo click/tss/tbs no click/aa stun shining/armor etc
    Armor line stun/heal recourse
    Several things I'm sure to be leaving out

    Now when you dissect a heal parse you have to attribute what is happening when tanking and what is happening just for the giggles. A lot of that passive healing on an event parse is going to happen even when not tanking. By merely turning on attack. All of that then gets modded by aa in ways that favors knights over warriors. IE shining and any heal over time that I can crit etc.

    All that to say you can't just say "self healing" and the bury your head in the sand or put your fingers in your ears. Yes active healing contributes and so does passive but it isn't done in a vacuum. Looking at the raw numbers of a heal parse doesn't take any of the types of healing happening.

    Yes we have the ability to do so over warriors. However warriors still have advantages over just last stand that you can't quantify either.

    One step in the right direction would allow warriors to crit heal over time spells and somehow work a way to allow them the same as lines to boost a heal like promised and not just crit. If they want to give warriors an always on bonus to incoming heals of x% that would be fair as well.

    If it was as simple as knights can just heal themselves we would have zero tanking discs. And we all know that isn't true. Which is why we received them to begin with.

    Passive warrior healing would work the same way but they might as well give it to them. That inquisitors judgement aa that Paladins love with its 800 proc mod substituting the damage for healing and allowing warriors to click it works. As does various other things. The ideas are out there people just need to get the devs to place them.
  7. sojero One hit wonder



    Well sir that is the problem when you are in a conversation with me and you say "you are doing it wrong", because well, you don't know what I am doing. and you are showing your own ignorance at that point, and lack of ability to read, and that you just want to mess with someone. I am fine with this, you just have to accept the fact that I am going to mess back with you.

    I honestly couldn't care less if you are mad or serious, I only ever post here out of jest and my own amusement. If I actually care about a topic, it is usually in private messages. I learned long ago not to give 2 flyings about what other people post on boards on the interwebs, because well, neither party have anything invested and people will be as rude and ignorant as they possibly can, when it suits them.

    edit to add: Oh and just saw your, hold your mouth diff comment, well sir, I haven't had a mob complain yet about my mouth placement, but I have gotten cross server tells from mobs about yours! You need to learn what to do with your mouth better!
  8. Xanathol Augur

    #1 Mob bash and push interrupts spells more often than any other ability and it happens with every mob.

    #2 On almost all challenging raid bosses, self healing means nothing. For one, the healers are healing you. Next, if you have 130k hp and are taking an 80k round followed by an 80k round, a 20k lifetap in between really doesn't do much good as you are still dead. Not to mention, you have a couple of seconds before you can cast again and in the case of lifetaps, its more like 12 secs.

    What you really are complaining about is what many knights have stated Warriors are missing since the inception of EQ that knights have - downward scaling tools. But you guys keep rejecting that, wanting more power where it matters most and using knight abilities that matter least in those scenarios to make your point. The entire argument regarding self healing on raid bosses is a logical fallacy.
    sojero likes this.
  9. Makavien Augur


    Then you won't mind if they make passive healing for warriors = to the amount of healing you can do ? And after that each expansion they start giving us your utility tied into our current toolset. Downward scaling abilities do not make up for self healing outside of raiding.
  10. sojero One hit wonder


    LOL honestly couldn't care less because it wouldn't degrade knights in any way.
    Xanathol likes this.
  11. Makavien Augur

    Well keep in mind everything is fair game when you take our unique ability to survive. Fd snare the ability to debuff , fade up to the highest levels, high damage burns all of it .Except us healing others because that would just be dumb .
  12. sojero One hit wonder



    Again, my personal opinion is couldn't care less, I play the sk because it suits my personality. I have all the other tanks too, and don't enjoy them as much. Giving something to any class in the game as long as it doesn't break the ability of the others in the archtype to do their job doesn't change the other classes. The only people that will get miffed about it are those that didn't like their class in the first place and were only playing it because of an OP ability(s).
    shiftie likes this.
  13. shiftie Augur

    The funny thing is nothing was taken away. And nothing was given away.

    Prior to stances, warriors tanked better during last stand for the last 17 years. They gave warriors stances making Knights incapable of doing their primary duty because of mob tuning in the face of stances. So they gave Knights stances. All it was, was a big circle jerk. We are back to square one. Sk needing raid utility and warriors needing downward scaling abilities and more utility items

    The only thing that changed was the warrior mindset that they should have an always on op advantage owed to them because Knights use blue mana and they use yellow mana.
    Xeladom, Zarzac and Xanathol like this.
  14. Makavien Augur

    You know as well as I they do not tune mobs based on what abilities are active they pick a number and hope its right.They have done that forever never once in beta have I been stopped and asked to run a certain amount of discs so they could do npc tuning.They don't have time for that especially now.
  15. shiftie Augur

    Do you really think they don't have an automated system that they plug numbers into and it runs an algorithm that simulates in game scenarios? The only reason player parsing holds any value is because the devs occasionally miss things or things happen in a live environment that they didn't foresee or predict in the test environment.
  16. mackal Augur

    Judging by their sig, roll a warrior, not a knight :p Wait, what was this thread about?
    sojero likes this.
  17. Makavien Augur

    They didn't until the aggro meter at least from what I was told well I am sure they have that but the dps of npcs did not dramatically increase since stances it increased about the same as it always has other than the huge jump in the heroic strikethrough cap which was because of heroics not stances.

    I know you haven't been here shiftie so a lot is based of what you see said but knights were quite capable of doing their main role all through tds and tbm .

    There was a small glaring problem not a gigantic one. One of the biggest being giving knights a way to survive before heals started which they did. And then they piled on a whole bunch of stuff and then they added dp.
  18. Sheex Goodnight, Springton. There will be no encores.

    That's a bit extreme man. It's not totally meaningless, and we have 3 or 4 abilities on longish timers that when used smartly effectively mean a complete heal, which can be life saving. That's impactful. I'm talking about things like leech touch, zombie + some leech effect + carmine, twincasted dicho fang, etc. none of which is meaningless in the vast majority of content, even difficult raids. Does it scale to be a lot less impactful on the baddest big boss? Yes, but don't ignore our class strengths because a few people keep touting self heals are op self heals are op! Moloing with a wizard merc in raid gear op! Swarm killing 50 level twenty undercons op!
  19. shiftie Augur

    I still play I just don't raid because i don't have time. It wasn't the main boss tanking that was even the issue afaik. It was minis and trash dps that went up. The last time warrior tanking was of absolute importance were mobs like fumerak in terms of boss mobs and I think 1 or 2 in tds. And every time they do that it screws everything up because Knights can't step in outside of deflect. And then guilds try to pet tank it.

    The always on bonus from dp was too high. In order to not have warriors be op they have to tune the content up or warriors will barely require healing and everyone gets bored. Do I think they should retune dp? Maybe. Only time will tell but from your parse and sojeros warriors are still ahead in spite of Knights having dp which is what all the Knights asserted prior to the parses. And guess what it went full circle back to the original arguments pre stances
    Surprised mortals?
    Warriors just don't like Knights tanking main bosses period the end. Even though there are various periods eq where that was a reality.
  20. Kamea Augur

    When warriors got ISS in HOT, paladins did not get anything taken away either, in fact they got a massive DPS buff that expansion. Yet you still felt it was necessary to go on a crusade against warrior DPS.

    Hypocrisy much?


    According to your "logic", the devs removing Phalanx mitigation thus nerfing LS % from 60% to 50% was the catalyst of a abnormally large boss DPS increase?

    And you're well informed on raid boss DPS when you admit you've been a casual player for years?

    Funny thing is, one of the hardest hitting bosses in recent years (WK2 Commander), and the only boss I've seen knight Guardian disc not be enough to tank, was a boss that came out a few months before warrior stances existed.
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