Problem: Mitigation is too high and requires all mobs' DPS to be adjusted to high levels to consider tank mitigation. Solution: Wait until the next expansion so mobs' DPS can be properly tuned, as I assume DBG wouldn't be willing to take the time to redo the mob tuning for all of TBM to accommodate stance tuning Remove knight 2H stance Nerf warrior DP to 15% Either nerf knight DP to 5% and let them keep innate5 or nerf it to 10% and remove innate5 Readjust knight Guardian / Mantle / Armor discs to actually reflect an actual balance/design goal, as current DP breaks knight disc tuning Increase the shield block chance on both knight and war DP
imo: Wait until the next expansion so mobs' DPS can be properly tuned, as I assume DBG wouldn't be willing to take the time to redo the mob tuning for all of TBM to accommodate stance tuning Beta Remove knight 2H stance Remove Weapon stances AA and all proficiencies Nerf warrior DP to 15% Either nerf knight DP to 5% and let them keep innate5 or nerf it to 10% and remove innate5 Readjust knight Guardian / Mantle / Armor discs to actually reflect an actual balance/design goal, as current DP breaks knight disc tuning Increase the shield block chance on both knight and war DP Bring back "Phalanx of One" AA at a 10% modifier (doesn't stack with LS) Fix Dual Wield/2H DPS for Warriors with passive AA's (not with buffs) /imo
What a failure of a post. You have no sense of game balance whatsoever. SKs have more right to a 2her stance than Warriors any day of the week and twice on Sundays. Even after getting it, warriors with a 1her out melee equivalent sk 2her dps, aka its still not enough. They could fix warrior 1her dps but I'd rather see positive corrections - not negatives. The game was just fine before warriors got DP. If knight DP is to differ, it should only do so by 5, max 10% (DP + innate that is). Warriors could use some utility while still mitigating better (just not worlds better). They should never out dps an SK. Ever. Get over it and stop trying to take that from SKs - Elidroth isn't here to mess that up any more in your favor.
Proficiencies were a disastrous attempt to address Warrior DPS/Agro imbalances caused by Shield Specialist. I'll never understand why the dev team opted to double down, and later go all-in on an imbalanced situation, rather than addressing the source of the issue. As a result, most Warrior activated DPS and defensive abilities are light-years behind where they should be. Regarding DPS balance between tanks, let's keep the class warfare out of this thread, k?
I don't disagree that DP was bad for the game, as well as SS. I'd clarify your second statement to say that tank dps has suffered, not just warriors. As for the last statement, the OP specially called to remove 2her stance from knights, ie. he's calling for class warfare, directly aimed at SKs. Some Warriors have been doing this for years with varying degrees of success, requesting to have dps be their 'second' thing and simultaneously tossing aside SKs for whom which dps is the differentiating factor among the tanks.
I'd be in complete favor of doing Dre's list on the conditions of 1.) Knights keep current innate 5 mitigation and it stacks with all discs. -- 2.) Threshold melee mitigation type abilities are changed to not be stackable with LS, Holy and Unholy disc. -- 3.) Start with Shield Profiency and mitigation related things. Leave Two Hand Profiency be for all tank classes until other fixes are specifically in place for DPS related issues. Would be silly to remove from Knights only with current state of tank DPS. -- 4.) Warriors receive 1 Vie line discipline similar to Mantle/armor line of Knights
Very similar to a list I would make. 1.) Keep knight DP and innate within 10% of warrior.. be it 25%+ 0 or 20+5% someone else can choose. This would keep the 75% theme alive. 2.) If 1, then adjust the knight duration/refresh timers on their guardian discs. Both duration and refresh timers should reflect 75% of warriors LS. Increase the absorb restriction on the mantle/armor line. 3.) If #2&3 then give warriors a similar but 25% better disc using the same SPA as mantle/armor. 4.) If #2,3&4, then rework the paladin dichotomic to reflect something similar to the warrior dichotomic. Assuming SKs would want something reworked too. 5.) Give warriors a targetable group AA to increase hps, similar to paladins having group armor of the inquisitor. Create a line similar for SKs (if they don't have something already).. be it AC+damage procs or AC+life taps. Adjust duration/refresh timers all around to be equal. 6.) Keep 2h stance for all tanks the same... I would prefer to have the bonus increased across the board instead of removed altogether. This would offset the 'who cares about 2h weapons' which has and still seems to be common among tanks. 6b.) Or put in a bonus for slay undead when using 2h. Something comparable for SKs.. maybe debuffs to increase damage if using 2h. 7.) Give something to warriors to make them want to use duel wield.. be it a stance to allow them to have a better proc rate with an Innate large rune proc, or allow them to achieve a higher riposte / parry rate to offset the lack of shield block / DP. However, last stand mitigation discs could not be used in conjunction with duel wield stance; only a mitigation similar to knights armor (small mitigation with limiting factors) could be used with duel wield stance with the higher riposte / parry.
Another one of these dumb posts. Warriors are in the best shape they have been in in a very long time. When the stars align, they are hitting 300k+ hps, 18 or 19k ac, 50% mitigation and basically very little agro problems. Finally now knights can step up and tank bosses for a reasonable amount of time until our discs fade when the warriors drop. Warriors are fine. They are still the number 1 tank on raids. Knights are finally fine. No thanks, I do not want to go back to being ROFLSTOMPED when a warrior drops and I take agro if my deflection isnt running.
>> 1.) Knights keep current innate 5 mitigation and it stacks with all discs. In turn, Phalanx should stack with all discs as well if that were the case. >> 2.) Threshold melee mitigation type abilities are changed to not be stackable with LS, Holy and Unholy disc. >> 4.) Warriors receive 1 Vie line discipline similar to Mantle/armor line of Knights. I do agree that the stacking on these type of abilities is a disaster, but doing what you suggest under the existing numbers results in a massive nerf to the Warrior class. That said, I think you might be on to something here. A clean way to do what you propose might be to convert these abilities into disciplines. Nerfs aside, this could actually be good news for the weaker ones which were previously designed to be used in tandem with other abilities - they could be powered up substantially under the new scope of intent. Add some QoL tweaks and we might see all tanks in a better place in terms of flexible discipline coverage. If we go down that road, do keep in mind that tank self-healing is not, and should not be a major part of the Warrior toolset. As such, Warriors would need to keep meaningful and unique advantages in damage mitigation for both balance and class identity purposes. >>3.) Start with Shield Profiency and mitigation related things. Leave Two Hand Profiency be for all tank classes until other fixes are specifically in place for DPS related issues. This is kind of a tricky one. I prefer to separate discussions about mitigation from discussions about DPS until such a time that the tank community has proven it can behave itself.
There's a bigger picture to embrace here: Knights should want to shed 2H proficiency. Think about it: Shield vs 2H can remain a meaningful choice without proficiencies. Additional buffs/penalties that hold an even-larger part of your DPS or mitigation hostage based on what you have equipped are simply unnecessary. This was the major problem with proficiencies before they were given to Knights. Deflection Discipline is a great example of this kind of unnecessary restriction. On the defensive front, the biggest problem with DP is if mob DPS gets tuned up around it. When that happens, whoever doesn't have DP running is underpowered against the mobs they are fighting; including tanks not in 1H mode, pets, mercs and non-tank classes. One way to mitigate this might be to grant a similar effect to priest/support classes as a targetable buff. The entire purpose of the proficiency system was to fix the internal broken balance of Warrior weapon choices; something that was never an issue for Knights. After varying degrees of failure, annoyance and collateral damage, I'm more than ready to end that experiment. Not to mention that a large "pendulum swing" as such has the nasty side effect of stagnating class growth with future upgrades. All that considered, the best way to enable overall improved survivability, tank DPS, and balance DPS between tanks is to get rid of the proficiency system for all tanks. Now, that might mean a loss for some of us in the short term, but I'm willing to take a step backward if it means taking two steps forward. Are you?
I think most reasonable people want to get rid of the stances, but that leaves the big elephant in the room. LS/guardian lines. There needs to be something that bridges the gap for when we are not running those, or those also need to go down as well to something like 15 and 10%. (and mantle/carapace lines)
The only problem with that is that they simply don't want to up weapon damage enough to keep up for knights, or give us aa/skills that make up for it. If I have to lose defensive skills in order to do appropriate 2h dps, no skin off my back if this is how they want to do it. I am not sure the current 2h proficiency is balanced appropriately, seems a bit too good, but how much you want to bet it seems more reasonable after 1-2 more expansions of stagnating abilities? With the dev roster like it is, I almost want to say "take what you can get while you can get it".
That's where Phalanx and Sedulity fit in. Tank base HP pools could afford to grow a bit as well - big spell damage mixed with melee is the suck. I can certainly identify with that perspective. Most conversations on this board are just the playerbase amusing themselves anyway.
No, a smart warrior won't use all his HP tool stacking at the same time You will reach 46 % mitigation under your Holy disc, and something like 52-53 % mitigation under Mantle / Armor stacked with DP. You can step up only a bit and cannot one tanked TBM raid bosses ? I big lol. Correcting it for you, warriors stay on Boss because they have nothing left to do, but doesn't mean knights cannot do it too. Knights are overpowered versus raid bosses with the def proficiency % they received, they have became way more than just "fine".
For the record, I find it "very" difficult to not go with Maedhros's line of thought on this. In current game, I feel mitigation balance between the tanks is the best it's been in very long time. If things were to take another turn, I'd want it to be in the best interest of overall "Everquest" balance. I personally don't feel tuning around the current max mitigation stacks of LS/Guardian+Threshold Rune melee mitigation ability or Shield Prof+Mantles are wise. I also find tuning around the current "sustainable" levels of mitigation equally unwise. I really don't look at any of it as nerfs if all tank classes took mitigation hits across board in all categories. IMO, it should have been nipped in bud before it got to this current point but better late than never. Also, let's not turn this into the other thread lol
It's very easy to not go with Maedhro's line of thought. Mitigation is not balanced between the 3 tanks. It's very overpowered in favor of knights. For it to be fixed, the def proficiency % of knights needs to be reduced. Also for the above post, Knights will run at 41 % mitigation under Holy disc, not 46 %.
Warriors stay on raid boss because they're still the best to do it, given same skill and about same gear, they require less ressources to do so. Saying otherwise is either a lie or not being aware of reality of current raiding.
There is nothing wrong with DP . Dps people are not getting killed any faster than they always have. The only imbalance is the knight DP needs lowered to like 15 - 20% then instead of the other 15% in mitigation make it boost self healing by 15% then it will be a knight version instead of a copy and paste. The knight 2hander stance is out of wack warriors have always been the sustained dps tank anything that raises the knights sustained dps when they are already ahead is a complete error. They can easily fix this by allowing warriors to use knight 2 handers. You can't take 5 steps back and expect to be repaired it will never happen correctly and we'll all just end up nerfed. All warriors need is some more tanking dps and some and what I said with the knight 2hand weapon not t he 1 hand weapon. Paladins need more aa aoe aggro. Both knights need more of their hatespells turned into aa so they can make seem-less macros.Shield flash needs to be a 3 minute recast. Fortitude needs to last the exact same length that deflection lasts. They need to remove the maximum damage caps on guardian and than all balance would be returned and then they can double heal potions heal , and reduce its recast by 50% . Both of us need a special attack tied to eachof our stances that deals a big hit and for sks make it do a debuff and for paladins make it do a sort term heal boost for warriors make it do an ac boost.
