I have complained about nerfs causing my class (Enchanter) to lose its uniqueness before and was met with stern opposition. Now, here we sit at the midpoint of the new expansion (hopefully) and I ask, what do we do on raids? Here is what I see: Tank: none Debuff: about 5% - if 3-4 enchanters are on the raid, you only need to cast 1 on the mob... and maybe rotate the mental contortion. Mez: about 1-2% of all of your casts since only Stem the Tide, Emollious (a few may mez), Grannus (3 goo mez), High Bokon, Enslaver all have 1-2 that may mez. ----1 enchanter could cc any of those mez mobs on either of those events, and will still spend most of their time doing other stuff. Charm: very little since High Bokon has 1-2 charmable in each wave of adds. Buffing: 1-3% depending on deaths Nuke/Dot: 85+% of the time! So people complain, stop talking like a wizard, being concerned with spell damage augs, and wanting to be dps... well again, look at what DB has set the raids to have us do. These boards go crazy if an enchanter does 250k dps, but it is fine for a Ranger or SK (both utility classes just as an enchanter)? Not that I want anyone nerfed. Just stop crying about other classes and let them prosper. They drop necromancer dps for no obvious reason. My point? Who at DB is representing us as enchanters? They are getting closer and closer to making all of us just about the same thing in the Raiding format. Developers have to see the horrible balance they are progressing towards in terms of just 4 real classes. Healer, Caster, Melee, Tank.
What is a utility class? Last I was told, necros, rangers, enchanters, druids, knights, bards, all fall under that type. I could be wrong, but so be it. SK's can pull/split, fd, DPS (a lot), tank, mana tap for group, and heal. Oh and summon corpses and such.
An Enchanter's primary role on raid is exceptional situational awareness and leveraging all our tools to benefit the raid as best we can. Enchanters bane is lack of CC content during events but, that turns around and limits AE dps effects if it is over done not everyone gets their chance. I would personally like to have seen some CC during emollious but we can't have it all every event. At least we have a chance at some personal dps when the situation turns in to tank and spank on raids. For so many years we had nothing of decent value to do on raids once debuffs landed and no CC was needed. As for how strong our dps is we come in behind all the 'dps classes' and ahead of all the 'non dps classes' when not otherwise engaged. Most other classes primary role is dps healing or tanking while enchanters/bards are utility as primary role. If anything i would like to see bards get a small self only dps bump and leave chanters alone.
I used to lobby for beneficial changes for enchanters, but not in much of an official capacity, I just used to do a lot more than I do now.
Bards are capable of out dpsing us... I have parses of them on grummus at over 180k. We are not at the correct point of we fall behind knights. And tbh, if a dps class is slacking, then we should be able to hand their rear end to them on the parse. Since it is the majority of our job.
Ahh yeah. Raid guilds are constantly trying to recruit me for my "utility" - aka, unique ability to fd (shared with monks, necros, bst and anyone with a simple to make TS potion), pull (when modern content hardly ever requires pulling), and summon their corpses for them. No tank dps' "a lot" short of a Paladin on undead, and up until literally last week, in raids warriors were almost always a considerably better choice. Thanks for the morning chuckle. And let's also be real - the prior expansion's raids were one of the most ench reliant in recent memory. It's not the end of the world that this set aren't.
You just proved my initial point. And even though those things are shared... it is your unique package in an SK that makes you worth having. Actually according to your above quote, there was no reason to want you before last week, and that was not the truth. I might be crazy, but I've always valued our sk's and knew if several mobs got on me, they would be the ones to take them off at all cost. The point is we all need to maintain our unique abilities and usefulness. I lose that if I'm made into an under-powered nuker. Warriors lose if they bring knights too close to them in tanking... not that this last patch overdid anything.
Why exactly do you think an Enchanter's "unique package" of utility right now is not valuable, but a Shadowknight's is?
I never said it was not valuable. It is losing it's appeal as more events are designed to not use them. This is no knock on any class. This isn't sk vs enc or anything. You are missing the point. Stop nerfing these classes such as necros, enchanters, etc if you aren't capable of designing material that takes advantage of them in other ways. And no, we aren't wizard familiars nor bards.
Bards are probably doing 180k because wizard Manaburn works on their weapon procs, and IIRC bards have some cool thing that gives them like 100% proc rate or something like that for xyz seconds. If the developers ever decide to change Manaburn to just working on actual spells with mana (and not weapon procs), then that should solve those ridiculous parses for the bard class. That is, if Manaburn is the primary reason for those burns. I am not a bard, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...
So is this a "wuah stop the nerfs!" thread or a "wuah raids need cc so ench can have a role" thread? I can't tell. Both?
That's correct. Beastlords, Bard, Rangers, Warriors each have one. A parse that high from a bard means they were paying close attention to when to fire theirs, since all the versions are quite short duration. http://www.raidloot.com/AA.aspx?effect=worn proc rate by 10000
It is inquiring as to the representation to DB that enchanters have, or do we have any? I don't care about the other classes *maybe my rogue alt* but I don't anyone to lose power so we have a real purpose. If you are going to make me into a nuker 85% of the time, then give me the tools to be good at it, if not, then give me the purpose I signed on for.
Oh, geez... shut this thread down before a dev or some over-zealous Enchanter sees it. No, of course the dev team doesn't have any Enchanter representation since what's her name left the dev team and even then it was so-so. If a dev for example hasn't been playing an Enchanter for a long time then they will have no clue how to balance them because of how diverse and complicated the class may be. The best representation we received was the Elidroth AA chats because those were the only points in history where Enchanters worked together to actually produce results that helped the majority. Those days are gone. Given our current state I would be VERY happy that they not even touch us. TBM group is *VERY* Enchanter friendly. Now, you're asking about raids - but that's a tad short sighted if you don't consider both components. Based on every single thing you listed as an example - that's a direct result of CONTENT design (Sheex already pointed this out). So, what you should be lobbying for is better raid content to include more Enchanter-y stuff. Not changes to Enchanters. However, that's when you run into a wall... designing content requiring XYZ amount of CC results in raids dependent on having ABC amount of Enchanters. You're adding yet another class requirement c*block to raiding which already exists in the form of Warriors and Clerics. For top guilds who have people with 90+% attendance and a perfect roster, well, duh- of course that wouldn't ever be an issue. But we know that they no longer tune for the "1%" (which is a good thing if you want to keep most of your playerbase). Given you list every TBM raid that suggests you're in a top 10 guild where almost everything becomes trivial for any class so your argument is paper thin IMO. I like to consider myself midtier (T2 completed about to have enough for T3 TBM) and run with an Enchanter crew of ~3 generally. We still have to co-ordinate spellshielding (all 3 types), MC, deep sleep, maintaining Dicho on our group every refresh, DPS, re-buffing/buffing, group or tank runes if needed, perfected ADPS execution, etc. I can *always* find something to do on a raid that is beneficial that no other class can do (in addition to non-trivial DPS). And for a raid example: Stem the Tide - you can be doing a lot more than mezzing (/wave PBAE stun, Stun, Root/banish). So if you're only mezzing on that raid, well, that's because your guild decided to deal with it differently. So, not to be a jerk about it but a top-end raid character complaining about their class is never an accurate representation of anything. Go do some group content. It's a lot more fun than the raids anyhow. Which again brings up the point that this is a content issue, not an Enchanter issue. And my recommendation is that you definitely DO NOT make it an Ench issue because once the 'dev eye' is upon us, it will lead to nerfs, not improvements - I can guarantee you that. We came out of "Enchanter Nerf-pocalypse 2015" relatively well... if they start to focus on other aspects of our class again, we'll probably be in the same state as Mages or Necros now. Be glad they do not know our class. And my response to this... you already have the tools.
Very casual raider, seem to have plenty to do, primarily DPS and CC along with buffs and debuffs. I keep busy. I love being an enchanter these days. It's a blast. 'Nuff said.
Once again, it is a matter of not nerfing any class. I have done the group content, and have every conquest, collection, achievement, hunters, aug, and mission there is for TBM, and was done in 3 weeks... the broken events are what made it drag out .. so I don't need a group talk. The point is missed I see, which is why it is for representation with DB. On the raids.., 1, I repeat 1 enchanter can handle the cc portion (for enchanters) on any of them, and still would spend majority of their time doing other stuff. And go through your parses and tell me what you cast majority of your time.... it is not debuffs, buffs, mez, or any of it... it is nukes. With proper representation and communication between developers and players... that would improve. No one is talking of just nonsense target enchanters and start changing it without knowledge... that would be a very poor and nonsense failure. It is about proper game development. This is all repeat of what I said earlier that you guys have trouble reading. No one needs to be nerfed, to make enchanter relevant content for raiding. I am not much of a nuker, nor is any enchanter...so make a content relevant changes in the next expansion, or give me the power to be great at my job. I never want to be the jack of all trades, but the master of all things mental. As the class was designed. This is not a complaint, it is a request for the next expansion. Although they may not have the math to know it... if you do something 85+% of the time, and they all know that is what they do, then you should be very good at that part of your job, or the job should change.
