trying to avoid this conversation more or less. Just a few things. Insult, the recourse only sometimes does anything at all. Highest absorb wins, so half the time, it doesnt actually do anything. And knights win on this anyway. Insult recourse Mitigate Melee Damage by 50%, 9705 total Repel disc Mitigate Melee Damage by 90%, 33897 total Knights win on that. The warrior ae agro, it also has a damage components and cant be used at all when adds need to be controlled. Sks get theirs cut by hastening for it being a spell. Also they can load them all up and back to back cast if they wanted. I thought knights had a hate/debuff spell but im not to familiar with those anyway. Field protector, if in the same group can be hit by it. But also get your ac tap from Impose for Power which is a lesser version thats self Warrior Increase AC by 266 (L105) to 838 (L105) Sk Increase AC by 619 to 603 I dont see much difference. Self only, as well as getting the effects of the warrior in the group. The warrior self only one fills up a disc slot, so cant be used while runnign anythign else discwise. As far as warrior stuff being instant, its pretty much required. You cant channel aa casting or discs on a melee character. If they werent instant, while tanking we could never use any of them. Atleast knights and mana users in general have the ability to cast while being hit.
"Warriors also learn to taunt their opponents, making themselves the focus of all their enemies' attacks, allowing the less-resilient members of their group to remain safe from harm." noun noun: taunt; plural noun: taunts 1.a remark made in order to anger, wound, or provoke someone. synonyms: jeer, jibe, sneer, insult, barb, catcall;More informaldig, put-down; teasing, provocation, goading, derision, mockery "the taunts of his classmates" verb verb: taunt; 3rd person present: taunts; past tense: taunted; past participle: taunted; gerund or present participle: taunting 1.provoke or challenge (someone) with insulting remarks. "students began taunting her about her weight" synonyms: jeer at, sneer at, scoff at, poke fun at, make fun of, get at, insult, tease, chaff, torment, goad, ridicule, deride, mock, heckle, ride;More informalrib, needle "she taunted him about his job" reproach (someone) with something in a contemptuous way. "she had taunted him with going to another man" All non-magical abilities explicitly noted in the Warrior Class Description. Knight aggro abilities often come with extras (when the extras work) like stunning or snaring a mob. You might also look at refresh times. While we're looking at "extras" - It might be argued that self-healing is a post-injury substitute for mitigation. But you can't argue healing others is. That hamstringing an opponent that's about to run is reasonably tank-like but "snaring" a mob on incoming or one you want to kite isn't. Playing possum might be but not FD pulling like a PlateMonk. It's not Warrior who are outside of what they should be - adherents to the Tank Archetype. It's the hybrids. The best measure I know of to use is given a choice: The best tank (explicitly promised vs the most dangerous mobs) but live with being narrowly focused. Fill tanking roles (but not the preferred MT vs raid boss mobs) in group and raid content and able to do somethings outside of the tank archetype (some of which have synergy with tanking). Some choose 100% tank and some chose part tank (and have argued ever since that they should gorge from the Warrior plate and enjoy delicacies from other classes as a free bonus).
Jaylin -- per my last paragraph in my post -- my point is that each class has unique abilities that enable them to succeed in their core role, tanking. While warriors don't have a spell book, they do have the abilities they need to succeed in all situations. Right now, SKs don't. At the end of the day that's the only conclusion that matters.
I don't deny that sks need some love. I must have just misread, you had said things that knights dont get, while some of it they do. Thats cool, but i do agree that sks need a better niche. Paladins are overall in a decent place, and so were warriors, and sks needed something to bring to the table. I just dont think the way they are going at it is it.
Its 15 year+ old Everquest. No class is attracting new players at any tangible rate which is contributing to the problem. And, just because I choose not to allow class ego to weigh heavily in my opinions, that doesn't mean my points are not part of the discussion. As is evident by the fact that I am not the only one recapitulating them....
And yet you ignore the fact that for years Wars have been gorging from the knight plate (to use your terms) from the moment they gained the ability to cast spells. Regardless of what they are called. Also, since you still tend to refer to events and descriptions that are decades old, it's hypocrisy to say that knights received their extra abilities for free, considering how much more time and effort they had to put in to get those abilities, compared to a war. Knights didn't choose 'part tank' - they choose 'tank, and pay through the nose for extra abilities that will eventually be farmed out for free to wars.' To those Wars reading this that aren't still stuck in an imaginary version of the past of EQ - I'm aware of how things have changed over the years, including with XP, AAs, etc. Some people, however, wish to misrepresent the past with lies and hyperbole. Some war spells are better than knight versions, some are worse, but claiming they are not simply spells by another name is just silly. And getting 30% defensive prof would, in no way, make knights the 'preferred MT vs raid boss mobs.'
You have the reprove line blows away insult . Stormstrike doesn't even touch 1 of the multiple sk aes and can't be used when npcs are mezzed. Tormenting Shout is resisted at least 50%. Field protector doesn't touch sk epic ac taps or paladin armor of the inquistor / epic . Now I was actually one that suggested you guys get flash using block instead of parry , I was also the one that suggested you get the prof but you should only get one that is 15 - 20% mitigation maximum . We are being beat dps wise which was always a warrior niche remember we were 20% more dps then both knights and we were the baseline for years and years . Added with all your other discs and abilities 30% would make you guys the hands down no contest group tank ... And would make you too interchangeable with warriors on raids. Your 2 hand weapon with 2 hand prof what the heck are they thinking here the only reason we got 2 hand prof was to make up for how far ahead your weapons are compared to ours .
Tanks within the raid setting worrying about their DPS output is almost as asinine as DPS worrying about their tanking ability. Your role in the raid is to tank.
Our role when not tanking is to add whatever we are capable of adding . If you are not what are you doing there standing there and watching someone else tank ? And our dps helps us get our group faster exp also .
To be clear, I'm not actually saying that the Knights need a copy and paste ability. I'm less interested in the mechanism by which knights are able to tank raid content but more interested in the result. If that's a 50% as effective weapon stance, great. If it's something unique that fits the SK style, even better! To me, abilities are just a means of serving a role and not the actual objective themselves. Similar to how an Enc can mez while some classes can knock back root... The role is crowd control, even if the mechanisms are different.
Certainly true, but relative to dps of others, the difference between a warrior and a knight DPSing is negligible. Who cares if a warrior hits for 4 and a knight hits for 5 when the DPS classes hit for 50!
Our dps is not negligible in group content only in raids. If you can't add 30 k dps sustained to a group when not burning and more when burning then you are really not trying and that's warriors, sks are blowing us away in that area when we were the dps tank and need boosted back up to that spot. You guys really have no need for the 2 hand proficiency. Like I said the only reason we got it was because of the gap that already existed there is no gap that the knights need to catch up on in that aspect. If they do add that they need to change the knight weapons 1 hand and 2 hand to list warrior also and give it an interchangeable proc so we can have a rune weapon and a force of anger weapon .
I am still a firm believer that Wars should get a massive DPS increase, and Paladins a serious non-undead DPS downgrade.
Of course charm and range need a slot 4 type 9 aug which those pieces can use. Also, on caster primary and secondary group gear there is little to no spell damage. Spell damage wise these new items are a huge downgrade. And finally, the Oozing Bone Spike, a TBM earring which as EM XII on it. This should be brought up to par with the new expansion. EMII was the beginning group gear earring available in the ROF expansion. Pet focuses should not be downgraded, they're supposed to improve. I like the new expansion, but there's bugs which make it impossible to finish some missions and the above things I said.
The leading warriors' responses to the knight changes in this thread are delicious irony. First, I'll post what they said in the pet tank thread: * Just because pet classes have "always" been able to pet tank, doesn't mean that ought to continue * Just because the class description of mages indicate that they ought to be able to solo well, doesn't mean it ought to continue * Being able to "solo"/"molo" well is not a "carrot"; it is a lack of balance between mages/necros and the rest of the classes * No class should be able to "solo/"molo" well to begin with, as Everquest is a group game * Mage is a DPS class; they should only care about having the same DPS as other DPS because that is what balance is all about Now, contrast that with what they're saying here: * Warriors have "always" been the main raid tanks in Everquest, and therefore it ought to stay that way * The class description of warriors indicate that they ought to be the best tanks * Raid tanking is the "carrot" of warriors, so knights ought to find another "carrot" * Knights out solo/molo warriors, so warriors ought to out raid tank knights * Despite the fact that all three classes are tanks, there must be a vast gap between warriors and the rest when it comes to raid tanks And this is how logic gets instantly thrown out of the window when one's own class is involved.
Quite the narrative you've got there. Here's a more simplified and accurate version: Should/Do Warriors have unmatched survivability against the hardest raid bosses? Yes Should/Do appropriately geared Knights tank some/many raid bosses? Yes Should/Do appropriately geared tanks effectively tank group content? Yes Should/Do non-tank classes effectively fill the tanking role in group content? Not consistently Should Proficiencies/Stances be fixed before they are copied to other classes? Yes Should the devs hand out abilities without understanding why those abilities exist? No Should the devs, after YEARS of ignoring their pleas, finally get together with the SK community and come up with a raid role for SK's that isn't shared with War/Pal? YES
Fellow tank classes, I went back and read a lot of the posts and will quickly summarize as it is easy to get lost on threads extending in length. WARRIORS 1. Concerned over tank balance. 2. Lost role in raids. 3. Lost desirability in the group game. 4. Mitigation over healing for tanking in that warriors are lacking self healing. KNIGHTS 1. Concerned over tank balance being overly warrior dependent. 2. Mitigation over healing for tanking has for tanking in group and raid games. 3. Dwindling population are bringing tanking issues to raid game. I will start by saying I see and empathize with both sides. Real concerns brought up on both sides. I state that I have been and will always be a knight, so you will have to take that into consideration when reading. I no longer raid and have not done so since rain of fear. I have raided as a knight and as a cleric. I had been raiding as far back as I can remember, so warriors as the only viable main boss raid tanks is engrained. With my disclaimers out there, I would like to start off with concerns over the change. With good intentions, they were working on pet tanking pet aggro. This kind of backfired with unexpected results which they will apparently fix in the patch. I have a high level of concern that this will result in similar unexpected results which could cause the loss of tanking period for knight classes. Please, please test this out on the test server extensively before rolling to live. As far as the changes regarding to tank balance, warriors should be the best at tanking. The margin at the best tanking has really caused a lot of arguments and issues over the years. Maybe in the future clarification on expectations whether in a stickied thread or updated class descriptions would help alleviate the defensive positions always taken. Also concerning differences between tanks and all classes, I personally think it is good to have a mixture of classes that can fill the roles of tank, healer, dps, and cc/slower. It appears to be good for the game. If this is the approach and more options in tank roles is desired, the mitigation side will need addressing for knights(patch may have addressed already) as self healing has a lesser effect on raid tanking. It is also necessary to address that self healing side for warriors in some manner as it does affect tanking and desirability in the group game. My two copper, Rykard Paladin of the 96th season Emarr
Again, not concerned about group balance. Across the board, the group game is irrelevant to mitigation changes. Additionally I would assume these days most groups consist of a close niche group of friends or acquaintances which are more unlikely to preferentially pick a class strictly on perceived abilities and more so on the skill of the player. And DPS wise, just like in a raid, bring an appropriate DPS archtype and the issue is moot. You may wish to reevaluate your position on blessed rune procs within a raid setting. Nothing gets you killed quicker than an untimely proc when you have multiple spawning mobs.
Why try to compare these two? Don't tell me because the warrior version has a weak mitigation attached to it your trying to lump it into the same category as the Reprove disk because your Insult line is not a defensive disk by its nature its an Agro generator for your class. Yes sometimes we all use a spell, disk or clickie for side benefits but there is no Warrior that could ever tell anyone with a straight face that they use insult every 30sec for the 9705 damage mitigation and not the agro. You have other defensive abilities that are way better to use for survival ability. Insult III Is a Warrior instant hate ability for 11443 hate that happens to give the warrior a Mitigate Melee Damage by 50%, 9705 total. Warrior by product / bonus effect while keeping the mobs attention. Reprove III Braces your body to withstand the next three incoming melee attacks, reducing damage done. Mitigate Melee Damage by 90%, 28072 total. By that line of reasoning Knights mitigation is peachy but would have to argue we are severely lacking in agro generation and sustainability. But that would not be the case would it? Better question is when is the patch....
