Aggro on raid mobs/burn mobs with no fade

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Arcainos, Sep 27, 2015.

  1. Tarvas Redwall of Coirnav, now Drinal

    Heh, as a ranger with pre-nerf cover tracks I have had to make the decision to back out on more than one occasion to save my . It is not ridiculous. What is ridiculous is players thinking they can burn without consequence and not using the tools they were given like Jarring over Volley. What we are seeing right now is poor play coming home to roost. Right now comments like the above make me root even more for this change.

    Specifically to Zerkers, unless I missed something in the AA discussion only one person asked for anything to do with agro management and they got it. What I see here is a class that has neglected a vital portion of their class make up and it is coming home to roost.
  2. segap Augur


    I'm not going to argue about the position zerkers are in. Our top one dies more than anyone on every raid (even before this patch). Help is likely needed. And actual tools are the best, up front option. I'm just saying that backing out should not be dismissed as one of several tools that should be an option.

    I would assert, however, that actively backing out and nudging back in is far more active playing than hitting /attack (or /assist for casters) and madly mashing buttons (not implying that is your play style, but I do know several people who do just that). We need to get away from the mashing game. Use of tools should have consequences that make you think about when to use them rather than whenever they pop.
  3. Behelit Augur

    The ignorance coming from some in this thread is getting tiresome.

    For starters I was using Jarring last raid during burns, but guess what the same -10k hate that other melee get doesnt cover the agro we generate. How is it that Zerkers are expected to manage agro with the same -hate levels with conflicting timers, while other classes are able to agro tools on unique timers? There isnt a single shred of sense in the way things are currently set up, the deck is stacked against Zerkers plain and simple. But I appreciate the assumptions about my skill.

    As to not requesting agro management, again you really dont know what you're talking about as this would largely be done through Spells (with Jarring line being a spell and all) so the fact that it was only brought up once in AA chats doesnt mean its something the class has ignored.

    You seem to forget that Zerkers have had and continue to have the longest reuse on fade of any class. We weren't very reliant on it in the first place outside of using it for respite line and even that was once an event. Had the fade change not happened there would still be concerns about agro.

    I'm glad you enjoy sitting around to manage agro, but Zerkers dont share your myopic desire.
  4. Behelit Augur

    I completely agree there should be more emphasis on when/how things are used, but I disagree that backing out and doing nothing should be a means to create that timing. There are much more creative and engaging options.

    Case in point, Necros with FD. The way their designed with Damage being done every 6sec, and globalcooldown on spells, they are able to use FD right as/after Damage is done to get the most out of the FD. If they just spam FD at random between cooldowns it could land before a dot tick and then be almost immediately negated (not to mention will mess with spell swaps if they try to FD between every spell cast). Thats how you engage a player to using skills intelligently, not telling them to stand still + not press anything for a few seconds.
  5. Battleaxe Augur

    Nice to see a reasonable post that doesn't put aggro control entirely on the shoulders of Warriors but doesn't absolve them of major responsibility either nor does it suggest DPSers don't have some responsibility which may impact how much DPS they can do/when they can do it.

    VZ is a special case. Even with a fast MT and a backup tank who doesn't hesitate to jump in temporarily, should it be necessary, on FD/blur people in that room can die. IMO it's best if those doing damage vs. that mob can FD. It limits what classes are most effective in there.

    Did every class having a fade that works even on boss mobs make things easy? You bet. Vs. Vito on Tank Swap you AE Taunt and I Howl. $ucce$$. With Howl no longer working I turn off attack (see how I stop DPSing, proccing, and in effect back out?) and you AE Taunt. Also success but not quite as easy or dependable.

    Is not casting or meleeing a legitimate aggro management method? Always has been

    Can other methods, if DBG permits them, be even more effective? You bet. While no one likes to see a nerf adjustment, the chances are challenges are not going to be permitted to become and stay trivial.
  6. Bigstomp Augur


    Havn't done war since the change. Was never an issue before - and by before I mean after we had the event figured out - other than annoying to tank - not hard just annoying, sorta like mob 2 on WK 2.

    Has it changed much?.
  7. Tarvas Redwall of Coirnav, now Drinal

    Okay, so I asked the question earlier. In TDS Beta did Zerkers ask for better jolts?

    I do not think you know exactly what myopia means. You might want to look that up at your convenience.

    Anyways, I like living on the ragged edge which is why I know something about hate management. A dead ranger does no damage. A ranger not climbing the hate meter running out of mana is slacking. That is what is great about this game, it isn't one dimensional though I can understand why other players want it to be so.

    I am kind of curious. Do you speak for all zerkers?
  8. sojero One hit wonder


    The problem is zerkers were fine with agro and the tools we had before. fade was for endurence, not agro.

    If zerkers knew they were gonna get screwed over by the damage bonus changes 9 months later, yeah they probably would have asked for something. You cannot blame the class or the players for something they did not know about.

    You also cant really tell a class that hurts itself, roots itself and blinds itself that it needs to back out or turn off attack, that is not the way the class was designed. and changes will probably be made in the next expansion but that doesnt help a class that the vast majority of their damage is done in a 48 second window if they have no way to control their agro during that window and if they back out at all they lose all their dps for their burn.
  9. Battleaxe Augur

    I'm not certain what you mean by "issue". The VZ side works the way it works. FDers have more survivability than non-FDers. Did and still do. Fades were a help.

    Because of the FD/blur mechanic people die. IMO it's a little more difficult now than it was but didn't and doesn't prevent a win. IMO its pretty much unchanged. My point was that in events where the boss mob blurs or plays other games with aggro (all of which are special case events) Fades were particularly nice to have since good aggro management by DPSers didn't alone suffice.
  10. Bigstomp Augur

    I was just curious if you had noticed any changes (we have not done it since change).
    I'm not sure why FD classes were so important on VZ, just stand lots and you never lose aggro to the FD.
    Xianzu_Monk_Tunare likes this.
  11. Behelit Augur

    We've asked several times in the past to have the hate reduction from Axe of Rallos line to have a higher chance to trigger and greater values of -hate. The only requests for the Jarring line were mostly to move the timer so it wouldnt conflict with Volley.

    Myopic, adj form of myopia: a lack of foresight or discernment : a narrow view of something.
    I think thats fitting for someone who thinks backing out is a solution to agro management problems since "thats what we did before". Would you prefer if I had said provincial instead?

    And no I dont speak for all Zerkers. But there's so few of us left its pretty easy to talk around and get a pulse on the community. I'm not stupid enough to think all Zerkers agree on every issue, but generally there is a consensus and I have no problem relaying it as I am one of the more vocal members of the class. I'm not one to silently hope the Devs stumble upon our concerns/issues on their own. Meanwhile this thread was started by another Zerker, and people repeatedly accused him of being "just 1 Zerker" noticing this issue which is far from the case.

    Just to nip it in the bud for those that think I want it "ez mode" by seperating Jarring out from Volley, I would suggest this can be countered by increasing the endurance cost on Jarring line to such a degree that spamming it everytime its up would be detrimental to sustained dps, forcing us to use it intelligently. Obviously the -hate values would need to be adjusted if this method was used, as its currently a small dent in the mountain of agro we build on a burn. And again that's far from the only option, there's tons of different ways to fix this before we resort to "just back up".
  12. Arcainos Augur



    er, what did you think it meant Tarvas?

    Not sure what all the hate is for guys. There appears to be some issues with aggro, corroborated by more than just myself. I don't and won't ever agree that backing out or turning off auto attack ("stop playing" as Brudal said) is the solution.

    I'm sure not everyone is experiencing this in the exact same way, but clearly some are. I'm appalled at the hostility people have shown here, whether it be the "parsetards" comment, or calling out tanks as garbage, or saying we're clearly not playing the class right.

    My understanding is if we see an issue, it is beneficial to the game, developers, and players to bring it to light to be looked at. If DBG decides something needs to be done, so be it. If not, so be it.
  13. Battleaxe Augur

    Certainly entertaining the possibility of needing to decide how soon to burn, how hard to burn and when, when to stop meleeing or nuking, when to get futher away from a mob to reduce proximity aggro, etc. along with aggro reduction spells and abilities is not turning a narrow focus on the issue/s.

    While perhaps insisting changes to fade and only later admitting changes to aggro reduction spells and abilities is a little myopic.

    Further focusing almost exclusively on a single class over changes affecting (at least to a small degree) almost all of them is just a little provincial. I'm afraid those with a wider view are not the one's who are myopic and provincial. Would you rather I say those who accuse others of being myopic and provincial while exhibiting those characteristics themselves are "projecting"?

    As fate would have it, I have heard some complaints that a few Clerics are attracting mob attention and having more of an issue dumping it too. While I'm not overly sympathetic that over aggroing melee or DPS casters have to play their toons rather than AFK DPS with a burn script running, as a Warrior I definitely don't want Clerics to have to stop healing or have to cast something other than a heal to reduce their aggro.

    It's my understanding that if a class believes an issue affects them a lot more than it affects other classes it takes that issue to their archetype's forum.
    adetia likes this.
  14. Bigstomp Augur


    I was just asking, because really, a tank should never lose aggro there unless they die. I was asking if you had done it since the change and noticed anything. Like I said, we havn't, so was hoping for a minor heads up if something has changed noticeably.
  15. Leex Pewpewer

    I agree with you somewhat here, I think if there is an issue that it should be brought up and fixed. However, in this case I don't think there is an actual issue. My guild raided after the patch and we didn't have melee dropping from taking aggro.

    I've also tested a raid without silent casting, as insane as that sounds..Just to see what melee go through..I didn't get aggro once.

    As for that Zerker, I didn't read through the comments but if people said his guilds tanks weren't doing a really good job, I'd have to agree with that. Why should he die in this stage of the game due to a tank losing aggro, tanks have a plethora of different discs to use to control aggro management. The only way I could see it being the Zerkers fault, is if he didn't back off when the tank died.

    I believe if a tank dies, or the pickup is a bad one you should allow the tank to gain control of the mob or mobs before engaging.
  16. Battleaxe Augur

    I've done it. There have been some private comments about missing the previous version of Fade, but nothing in /rsay. Afaics it's for all practical purposes unchanged.
  17. Behelit Augur

    When the answer to all of the above is "just back out", then yes it's a very narrow focus on the issue. No one is asking for the ability to freely burn without managing agro so your point is moot.
  18. Utaerx Elder


    One of the best berserkers still playing (backed by one of the best warrior teams around) explains, at great length, why and how this is an issue. Yet somehow, it's still confusing to people that maybe, for berserkers specifically, this may be an issue?

    Inside scoop, fellas, the necros (and mages, and wizards, and even rogues and monks!!!) didn't have much trouble with aggro this past week raiding in RoV. Maybe, JUST MAYBE, this stuff REALLY is just about (good) zerkers running hotter than they should be? Just saying.
  19. FawnTemplar Augur

    Stop talking crazy Utaerx!
    Elricvonclief likes this.
  20. Elricvonclief Augur

    I've one alt, a Berzerker, and I've listened to the top berzerkers serverwide since 2011 when I created him.

    The ones that are still playing are saying something is wrong with the last patch.

    Non Berzerkers, and berzerkers who I"ve never heard of are saying things are fine....




    Who should we believe? ;)
    Xianzu_Monk_Tunare and Behelit like this.