Mage hit again

Discussion in 'Casters' started by Yimin, Jul 22, 2015.

  1. Sancus Augur

    At least from my experiences post patch, I think it'll be a few weeks before everyone figures out how to deal with the proc/rain/AC/stacking/etc changes. My first experience with the rain changes in raids was last night, and the main issue seemed to be mana. The actual DPS hit probably hurts more in guilds that can use AEs on more events (e.g. RoI), as there were quite a few events I couldn't use rains on previously. I do feel really bad for mid tier guilds with their long fight times, as I'm sure the mana issues I had were pretty minor compared to those they would have. However, I'm guessing (hoping?) that some of that will be alleviated by the increases to DPS everyone else got, as events went quite a bit faster for us.

    On a side note, main pet DPS did seem to see a nice boost from the AC changes (and I assume some benefit from proc changes). However, from parsing on combat dummies at different AC values and on raids, it seems RS pets don't increase in DPS very much until AC reaches quite a (relatively) low value. I'm wondering if that means their ATK has stagnated relative to players/NPC AC over time (especially since they don't benefit from any buffs other than auras)

    Edited in an attempt to make my train of thought at least slightly understandable.
  2. Cicelee Augur

    Last night's Vitio parse, 100 seconds, posted by a druid, all numbers are sdps-

    Wiz 307k
    Wiz 262k
    Wiz 216k
    Ber 203k
    Wiz 193k
    Nec 180k
    Nec 178k
    Ber 178k
    Rog 174k
    Ber 165k

    I think this was the first Vitio parse I can remember where no magicians made the top ten. We usually have 2-3 on Vitio. Last night the two magicians on the raid (I was one of them) did 149k and 123k.
    Silv likes this.
  3. Sancus Augur

  4. Igniz Augur

    Obviously, you "need to get better mages" ...
  5. Brogett Augur

    I'm suprised the melee are that low down. Did you get unlucky with the emotes and/or have lack of support for them? Do you have a good pin giving them full rear arc? For 100sec I'd probably be somewhere around 250k dps as a rog now (with perfect support).

    However as with every guild, it can vary enormously from player to player and event win to event win. Thanks for the data. :)
  6. Cicelee Augur

    Thanks for the data?

    This is one parse from one guild. I am not about to make sweeping generalizations about my class because of one Vitio parse. I know I personally casted Malo, which takes a couple seconds to land. I also failed to hit one or two discs pre engage so I hit them as Vitio was being attacked. By the time I started DPS Vitio was already around 90 so I lost some overall damage there.

    What I personally took from that one parse was that no magicians made the top ten. Before someone always did. Also generally our casters made up the top ten. It was nice to see four melee in that mix. If anything the AC hotfix helped out a lot. I know a ton of melee in my guild were saying how happy they were on Sunday. Even the warriors were saying how much faster events were going.

    I want and need to do more tests before I jump on the "magicians are crap now" bandwagon. Yes the rain nerf was bad for me, but I will adjust and figure it out eventually. And I am not a burn class per se, so I should never expect to be doing 300+ like a wizard. I know I can do better, and I want to see how much better is.
    Sancus likes this.
  7. Brudal Augur

    1st emote was back out and no rear arc for rogues; next time I will eat the emote hope to live and still lose to the top wizard.
  8. Beimeith Lord of the Game

    My thoughts exactly. :p

    We did it last night. Ours went slightly quicker than the above and the distribution was:

    Wizard
    Wizard
    Wizard
    Rogue
    Wizard
    Berserker
    Berserker
    Berserker
    Rogue
    Mage
    Mage
    Mage
    Enchanter

    We had a "run away" emote right away which screwed over the melee and a "get close" emote so the casters had to move as well. That makes it somewhat more equal though the melee still got boned more since it was early on. We also had a slightly skewed roster due to the stupidness of the day before (we normally do this event on Sunday) and the fact we essentially rebuilt the guild about half an hour before raiding and were still doing so in the middle of it.

    For comparisons' sake:

    The top Rogue did 94.3% of the total damage as the top wizard. Though as I said both had emotes where they needed to run and it was at different times in their burn cycle so it is hard to directly compare the two.

    The top Berserker did 80.5% of the total damage as the top wizard with the same caveats as above.

    The top Mage did 69.4% of the total damage as the top wizard. I'd say that puts Mages -exactly- where they are supposed to be on a burn: 70% of the class that is supposed to be the top class for caster burns.

    I see nothing wrong with this distribution.

    You seem to have the impression that Mages should be equal to Wizards in what is supposed to be Wizards' area of expertise. That is something we simply won't agree on.
  9. RPoo Augur

    I'm just embarrassed that the chanter wasn't me =(
  10. Igniz Augur

    I agree with you there. Sadly, we get out-dpsed by our brethren of the sustained way also (compare AH parse pls).

    I can assure you, I didn't hold back in any way. Fun fact, I used 7th Vet also, while the necro in question did not (at least, my GamParse didnt catch it).
    Sancus likes this.
  11. Sancus Augur

    I'm actually surprisingly in agreement. I don't think Mage burst post-patch is in a terrible place relative to other classes (well, except one particular "sustained" class :rolleyes:). The ratio of Wiz to Mage DPS on a burst fight looks ok-ish to me.

    However, what about sustained events? I'm not sure what you're seeing in MS, but Wizards are ahead of every class other than Necros (and Necros are "the" sustained class, so that's kind of expected) on most event combineds here. Mages are a sustained DPS class, and our sustained DPS seems to be notably lower than our burst caster counterpart.
    Sheex and Igniz like this.
  12. Necromonious Augur

  13. Tweelis Augur

    A few things I'm curious about regarding the above parses:

    What was the support/adps set up like for the above groups? Also are you willing to post actual numbers Beimeith? Saying a mage did 70% of the top wizard is like saying I see blue sky in Seattle.

    Thinking about the long term, will raid leaders stack groups differently and if so will that stacking make certain classes more/less desireable in the raid scene? I'm asking this because the first Tweelis was made in September 2000. I'm going to try and start raiding at least casually around December/January timeframe if life permits. If mages become vending machines again though I'd like to set my expectations up appropriately but if a few hundred AA's and some better gear will make it so I can be a contributing member of a raid I'd like to know.

    One last thing. The above parse said 100 seconds. Were you OOM at the end of the 100 seconds or do you think you could have sustained 149k dps for another 60-120 seconds? Is there a scenario where a mage will pull ahead of a wizard or even compete with other damage dealers?
  14. Sheex Goodnight, Springton. There will be no encores.

    Agreed, I'd like to see the same comparison for sustained or heck even total arx clear #'s, and for some other "parent:kid" class relationships too. Rog/ber vs monk, for example.
    Sancus likes this.
  15. Cicelee Augur

    Beimeith made the comment-

    You seem to have the impression that Mages should be equal to Wizards in what is supposed to be Wizard's area of expertise.

    Not sure if you were referring to me or not. But if that comment was directed at me....

    Yeah. No.

    In fact, I specifically stated I do not expect to burst for 300k like a wizard. My whole point was that this was the first time I have not seen a magician on a top ten. My second point was that in the past on Vitio, casters made up 9-10 slots of our top ten. This is the first time I recall that we had four melee.

    Here is the thing, though. When comparing casters, I feel a wizard should win any short burst parse. Check. A magician should win any medium size parse, say 4-6 minute. Well wizards are winning that. And on a long event, say 10 minutes a necromancer should win. Well wizards are neck and neck and occasionally winning that parse.

    That is the issue at the moment. A wizard is top shelf in essentially every parse that is out there. A necromancer is right there. And then there is the magician, dead last at what we should be very strong at- sustained DPS. Rains helped that cause, and have been reduced in power. Which is fine, I and others will adapt. We got our changes to help with our class balance. Melee have had their parses improved recently to help with that balance, somewhat. Now we wait for the next class balances to further bring things where they should be.
  16. Leex Pewpewer



    I'd be interested to see the dps/total on that list you posted.

    I agree with you that a Magician should burn around 70%ish( I think 70-75% is fair ) of what a Wizard can burn for. But I'm curious what the sustained parse looks like..Magician's should excel at sustained vs burst in parsing anyway, but I'm not seeing that..
    Sancus likes this.
  17. Beimeith Lord of the Game

    It wasn't. If it was, I would have quoted you, like I just did here.
  18. Piemastaj Augur

    Hold the phone, the top Burst class shouldn't be the second best sustained class? Someone should probably alert a Dev....

    @Bei were those Wizards at or above 350k? Think it was said during the Test topics that Wiz should be at 400k possibly more, under ideal situations perfect ADPS yada yada. And if we say Mage top would be 200k (Unsure really I didn't get an Enc this weeks run, but from other parses 190-200 is what I have been seeing serverwide) that would put Magicians at the 50% mark, not the agreeable 70-75% mark.

    On top of that we are not even close for sustained now, and realistically we should be ahead not behind. That is how it has been for a while now.

    This needs to be a pretty awesome Beta.....
    Leex, Cicelee and Sancus like this.
  19. Xata New Member

    Generally -- at least in my experience -- when people bother to parse the data, those same people show the numbers to justify any conclusions they draw.
    Igniz, Sancus and Piemastaj like this.
  20. ~Mills~ Augur

    Umm yeah ah no. There would be zero use for the class as dps in 95% of game play.