Twisted Legacy's Raiding Proposal - Rotation

Are you going to hire someone who wants to work 3 hours a day and get the same paycheck as someone who works 8 hours a day?

This made me laugh. Although, its kinda sad that this could actually happen if rotations were implemented.

You're obviously trying to troll, but I think the game should encourage people who don't have any experience in raiding to start raiding. I also think 10 hours is only just a little long. 6 hours is probably ideal, but 8 hours isn't so long as to be unreasonable.

As long as its clear that the guild is not doing something unsavory, such as intentionally holding the target alive until the last minute to manipulate spawn timers, guilds should be given enough time to form up, make an attempt or two at the target, and try different strategies. Sometimes a target will spawn in the middle of the day while most of the guild is at work, and I believe that these people should still get a shot at the target.

i am sorry my guild is to casual for you that you must accuse me of trolling. we are a proud and simple guild that only requests we be given the time we need to learn and kill the boss's. Are you saying we don't deserve that time?

No. But I see no reason to pay someone more because they can work 9-5 when the other person can do the same work but on a different schedule.

It's the same work. The only difference is the timing.

People who want to get started raiding have lots of options already. They have hate/fear minis and sky. Thats more than enough for them to learn.

This analogy is pointless. Besides, its not the same work. Guilds that continually lose targets are not doing as much work, period.

Most careers don't include anything substantial besides thinking about things outside of their normal scheduled work hours - they punch a clock for a scheduled shift and get paid for that. Very few careers include actual "work" beyond their paid hours without overtime (which is avoided, for obvious reasons).

Can we put the stupid analogy to rest already? It's a terrible one.

Wow, how bleak your life must be.

I know this is a troll and you are probably from TL, but it really misses the point. There would be no harm allowing guilds into the rotation that cannot actually kill the creatures because we could just make the rule that if they don't kill it in their window it becomes FFA (which would give it to TL) and then they lose their spot in the rotation. What's the harm? So many of the responses in this thread are childish or needlessly hostile.

Rotations are happening, make peace with it. Try to be cooperative and come up with something fair.

Because I hate bad analogies? They pop up all the time. (Additionally on the whole "work" thing specifically - I was a HR professional, so it's extra annoying to me...)

Otherwise I've got a pretty full life outside of kids - don't care for my genetic condition to be passed on, caused me enough problems.

It's obvious where your loyalties are. Here's the thing. TL, despite all the misgivings I have about them (A shame they didn't do it sooner without being told to) have at least have a proposal up. Yes, it is slanted their way. That is the nature of a negotiation.

But you.. You're a whole another story altogether. All you've done is belittle everybody and derail this conversation. Even your name is a poor attempt at trolling. Please go elsewhere to seek the attention you so desperately seem to crave.

That said; I hope to see a favorable and amiable agreement with all the guilds involved. It'll go a long way to turning our (Ragefire) server into a more friendly and welcoming server.

Whats not fair about my request? We in <Free Loot Please> are very serious people. This will give us enough time to learn the boss's and enjoy the content that has been blocked by certain guilds on this server since its start.

P99 doesn't really have a 6hr window like you think it does. Within a class, there is no window, it's all FFA. What P99 does is let you choose between competitive (Class C) and restricted raiding (Class R) - it cycles between those 2 classes and FFA designations on each raid mob spawn.

Competitive raiding is what we've had up until now. Restricted raiding isn't so restricted, there are no rules within the class necessarily to prevent poopoocking and such, it just restricts how many restricted mobs you can kill (1 of every 3).

The 6hr window you quote, applies to a mob going server FFA, where a Class C guild can kill a Class R mob. It doesn't apply really to the same context as here.

Class R on P99, has no amount of time to engage, it's competitive, it just locks you out. You'll find this mechanic, of a sorts, in our Guild A, FFA (Guild A prohibited) proposal, however.

I can't speak for DBG obviously, but here is how I've viewed it. - They endorsed the LJ proposal. They've publicly been in favor of competition at every turn. They obviously want some limits on that as evidenced by the recent directive, but they've never endorsed a scenario where guilds just sorta walk up to a mob, with no competition, on a time convenient to them. They've also buffed the raid mobs to a point where they're non-trivial. I mean, this PoSky stuff is putting out more dps than EP gods at level 50 (still can be beat however - bee dead), the other mobs are no joke, but they're not for every guild - or - even killable by many guilds going for them. They do seem want to be sure TL is no longer getting 90-100% of kills from all indications.

This is why we felt like the LJ proposal was a ready-made and appropriate vehicle for our proposal, not some scenario that removed all competition, mobilization, and open-zone raiding mechanics (all things they've largely supported in comments as being a key part of the experience in these eras). There are obviously guilds who disagree and want things to cater more towards them. DBG has already shown, at the least, the minimum of what they believe is appropriate - ie the LJ rotation (who knows, it may be the maximum as well). We, obviously, prize competition. A proposal that largely eliminates that, or shoves it out as a footnote, is one that I doubt our guild would agree with.

All of the counter proposals try to eliminate almost all competitive aspects. This is due, either to, the guilds not wanting to take part in it, or due to them just being bad at it. It's a natural desire. Having a slot in a rotation (what DBG asked for), is not the same as rotating kills (what many seem to want), and many of the solutions thus far want to try to guarantee rotating kills. There's alot of grey area in between. Frankly, the proposal we put forward is an attempt to come down smack dab in the middle. It also doesn't fall into the trap/misery of 20 guilds in a rotation each getting 5%, - there is always a way for guilds to improve and compete for more. Our proposal is not a socialistic nirvana proposal, it is a regulated capitalist proposal.

Roshen/DBG is free to come here and clarify the matter or dictate whatever they want, but ultimately, I'd be careful to assume that they are going to end up supporting the position you want them to. That includes our own positions, and we were mindful of this, and tried to put forward a proposal that was pretty far from where we wanted to start. Trust me, the Lockjaw proposal with tweaks is not anywhere close to our starting point, it was arrived at after negotiations, discussions, and it tries to bridge the gap and playstyles in the middle.

Skyp is open to feedback (he asked for it for a reason), he already has taken quite a bit into account, both internally and externally (no we did not just show up willy nilly with this). That being said, guild leaders need to talk to him (and each other) directly. The ones who have done so and had good feedback - thank you.

I didn't say your request was unfair. It seems fine to me. Either you can kill it and deserve the spot, or you can't, TL gets your spot for that week, and you lose your spot in the following weeks.

What the heck are you talking about? Who were you on TP?

Its a conversation about rotations, which is what i've been talking about. The fact you disagree with me doesnt mean im belittling you or trying to derail the conversation. It means you disagree with me.

None of you are as organized as TL
None of you are as Knowledgeable
Most of you do not use a batphone
Most of you do not put in the time to scout
Most of you do not track kill times and spawn windows
Most of you do not have 24 hour coverage

All of this being true. Why on earth do you think you "deserve" to have an equal amount of boss kills? For MOST of you this proposed rotation is well over a 500000% INCREASE in the amount of bosses you have killed up-until-this-point.

The most well received proposal gives Twisted Legacy twice as many kills as anyone else.

Twisted Legacy had a chance to propose a rotation similar to the one that began this thread a month ago and everyone would have happily fallen in line. You saw the unrest, you had to know something drastic was coming. You squandered your chances though - and for the immediate time your actions worked out in your favor. You'll end the "classic cycle" with many more kills than anyone else. But any guild who accepts a rotation that effectively gives TL 50+% of all kills in the future is a fool.

Most of the population is fine with the rotation, its just one or two stingy guilds who want to be on the same level as TL but in essence aren't