So unless I've missed it, I can't seem to find a rogue raid burn setup listed in the forums here. Did a quick scan of the first 6 pages of posts, and a couple of searches, and though there are some specific questions, there doesn't seem to be a rotation/disc list with orders, supporting dps, etc. Can anyone either list the generally agreed upon burn setup, or direct me to a post that may exist? Thank you.
Pretty sure its the same as it was in CoTF only you don't spike as high because of mob ac values in TDS. Once the ac is lowered again rogues rule the world with their spikes and refresh rates of burn.
In a perfect group, we can do OK, but it's very short time and there aren't really any very short burns. (Well, not for us at least). My last Vitio burn: As you can see, 250-300k dps is possible still, but this was everything on + glyph + epics + shaman + bard + bst fury + ber aura. + ranger auspice. Basically maximum ownage. Fight duration meant I did about half the total damage of he top player (a caster). The *SHAPE* of this graph is really what cripples rogues and berserkers, not the AC alone. They could lower the AC again (and IMO should), but ultimately pure melee dps are too dependent on others and the "in burn" vs "out of burn" ratios are simply too extreme. I looked very mediocre on that parse overall. Put me + support in a guild with vastly more dps such that the fight has half the duration, and it looks great. The game cannot be balanced while each expansion has bigger and bigger multipliers on support clicks and rogue discs. Edit: You asked about the actual burn. Basically it's the same it's been for ages. Rogue's Fury + Twisted Chance followed by Frenzied Stabbing (or Frenzied Stabbing following by Twisted Chance). Pretty much everything after that is fluff in comparison to the big burn, but by all means do it all to boost a bit. Use all your discs and remember to run knifeplay inbetween the burns.
There is one class that can do burst and sustained excellent and everyone else who falls into their traditional roles of good a burst or good at sustained. With differences creeping up all the time due to stuff like mob AC, support stuff added, ability to AE, ability to assassinate decap or hs. I agree either everyone should be like that which would be dumb or fix it so everyone stops expecting to be a clone of each other or downplays what they do well and points out the flavor of the month event type.
Well the problem is what duration do you consider sustained or burn? for example if sustained class starts to catch up after 60sec youll have 95% of the fights results in 95% of the guilds with sustained classes at the top, so it's not a good option; if sustainers catch up at 180sec it would mean they are miles away from burners in the first 60sec considering rogues for example really burn "only" for 60 sec (and so it would need 120sec to fill the gap despite the fact rogues are dropping a lot after 60sec mark), this is also a problem. Brogett is right, the difference between the first 60sec and the rest of the fight duration for melee (bers and rogues) is more problematic than ever and the gap is growing expansion after expansions with helpers and discs/AA upgrades boosting burns a lot and not really sustained dps.
Not all dps classes should be equal or clones of each other. Some people continue to downplay what they can do sometimes and only point out what they can't do in others and then hold out their hand. Mob AC in TDS is an issue. Burstained for one class is an issue. Wanting to burst well, AE well, combine parse on trash well, tear up older content with some tools well and then sustain with others that only sustain well is another problem we don't need.
So this is a good start, thank you Brogett. Can you, or someone, provide more detail what, if anything else you use in your burn, what you spam, what you leave out of your burn etc.? There are a lot of great write-ups for wizards, zerkers, etc. and I know the really good rogues seem to have it nailed down to a science.
Clearly there should be different styles of dps classes; burst oriented, sustained oriented, and the inbetweeners, plus all the hybrids that are part dps part utility, etc. I don't think anyone wants every class to be burst and sustained at the same time. However the gap between the styles has grown larger every year, as can be seen from the above. This isn't healthy for the game plus it's nigh on impossible to balance classes this way. Make it maybe so the average burst class bursts for maybe 30% more than the average sustained, and the average sustained doing 30% more damage than the average burst, then perhaps you'll get something more meaningful. (Also, as Songsa mentions, the break point between burst and dps needs to be close to 50% of events.)
The problem is that the devs have adamantly refused to define what they consider burst or sustained dps and short or long duration encounters. It's unlikely that they'll ever even consider the idea of burst, sustained, or hybrid type dps roles since they refuse to acknowledge that time is a factor.
Lots of people say it but they don't actually mean it. They want their class to be in the race at all times no matter the circumstances and spout the above just to sound reasonable. Don't get me wrong there are issues to be addressed but the biggest two are tds mob ac and burstained. Despite many other claims to the contrary.
Shouldn't it be some where in the lines of: (I know its not currently this way) wiz= zerker - great burst, low sustained mage = rouge - mid line, good burst decent sustain necro = monk - sustained - no high burst leaving hybrids out of the discussion Burst - 90 sec sustained - 5+ minutes burst should equal sustained between 3-5 minutes, all 3 sets around the same at the 5 min mark, then burst takes lead, followed by mid burst, then high burst. They could give us some nice tank spank, burn mobs, and some longer events like arx to give everyone a place to shine, so everyone can feel good about their class, because really that's what we all want, to have fun and feel that we didn't waste 10k+ aa making a class that cannot compare to others in any way.
To most burst has always been 1-60s of on demand at will massive spikes, pushed out to 90s these days. To most sustained is 3 minutes or more. Pushing sustained out to 5 minutes makes sustained classes pretty worthless for 90% of content like they were back when most raids died in under 3 minutes for like 10 years. Unless you stay in a low end guild or poor dps group. If they didnt catch up until 5 minutes on a mob they would then suck on trash, suck on combined trash, suck on short lived mini's, suck on short lived phases, suck on short lived main mobs, suck on AE friendly events. The big issue with the above model is that we went from 90% of raid catering to burst in some form to now having 90% of raids catering to sustained. At least for most guilds based on their dps as a whole.
The issue is your falling into the same trap your accusing others of, not admitting to the truth. were talking about Arx raids, none of them are short, thus you have to push out the burst to longer to make them even comparable to sustained. Sustained have never been good on trash or mini's, but they more than made up for it on main named. most also don't ask their sustained to move to trash or mini's unless the main mob hp locks. That also is a good reason to give sustained classes short burst abilities that wont add to their sustained enough to matter, but gives them something on the mini's when hp do lock, but no enough to compare to burst. You have to mold the classes to the current environment, and the real problem is that is always changing and the classes are not changing with it. thus the reason they need to balance them back out, then stick to a good format for raids to keep the majority happy, not just with the game, but also with their class. the problem is the dev crew holds the keys to both in their hands, and they need to work together more to make sure that everyone has their place and that everything is balanced to give everyone their time to shine, currently, not everyone has their place or their time.
All of this is pretty subjective, there are a lot of factors (burst and sustained are way too oversimplified) that need to be accounted for. There's also how horrible TDS raid design is as far as class balance goes, mainly for melee (but also the sheer number of sustained events). But before I digress further, I'd say this discussion probably is better suited for the "So are melee still crap?" thread, as the OP is actually asking about burn discs and stuff.
You don't tune dps classes around one expansion. Especially now when mob AC is drastically throwing off any fair comparisons. There are two people in this thread specifically that fought tooth and nail to nerf sustained classes burst when it barely fell within 30% of what burst could do, and that was only in pretty rare once a week type luck runs, back when most raids revolved around burst. Stating game balance, design and a million other factors. So its hypocritical to say the least that they are now here pleading to be within 30% of sustained classes now that raid design has shifted around sustained because of how nuts their burst has become to try and tune around. The OP wanted to know what burns to use in TDS. As I said its pretty much the same as it was in CoTF its just less effective against the mobs with higher AC in tds. Go back to do older raids and watch how nuts it can be when AC is normal again.
Thx for addressing this - but looking for a bit more detail on even what the CoTF burns were, with what to spam, etc. Is there a primary burn, then secondary, etc. like some other classes?
An old post I made for my guild in Feb 2010 and later updated 2013, but it's mostly still valid. Since RF got extended it may be viable to move Razor's Edge to immedately after RF+TC and RF+FS as you'll get a little bit of RF+RE in there. RF doesn't stack with assassin's/eradicators/executioners disc as it's the same SPA. It's possible on longer fights that you'd want to move 3rd spire somewhere else too. It doesn't 100% stack with some support mods (I think someone said shaman epic, but don't quote me on that) which means you'll get better use of it elsewhere. However on short burns, partial stacking is better than not having time to use it. Burn strategies Rogues get very few discs and decent activated AAs, so realistically there's not too many things to choose from. On burns I like to have the following combinations. The key to a burn revolves around the Rogue's Fury AA. This is a big damage multiplier which stacks with several discs, but not well with 7th or Eradicator's (Assassin's) line. With the higher ranks you also get extended duration of RF, finally topping at 1min6s in RoF so it can last most of FS + TC. Whether you go RF+TC followed by RF+FS or vice versa is a matter of choice. Try to set audio triggers for the main ADPS abilities of other classes too. Stacking everything together is the only way to reach those high 100k+ figures. Without ADPS you're more 60-70k region. Burn 1a Various epics (rog for sure, time with shaman, cry, etc as able). Thief's Eyes Rogue's Fury Frenzied Stabbing Simple Mark or Pinpoint Vitals/Flaws Third Spire (and probably Sleight of Hand to avoid stealing agro too) Our best disc - capable of reaching 100k+ when stacked with bard, shaman, berserker, etc - albeit for 30sec only. Easy/Simple Mark is the same effect as Pinpoint, but a greater effect for a shorter duration (eg 13% mod for 18sec for 8% mod for 30sec with rank 2s). They don't stack, but they also don't block each other. (Blame the idiot rogues during HoT beta who got easy mark changed to be identical effect to pinpoint to ruin any stacking potential.) Burn 1b As an alternative to above, substitute Frenzied Stabbing for Twisted Chance. Which works best? Good question. Obviously TC will win out if the mob is likely to be facing you a lot. I suspect things like whether you have a shaman epic click available may alter it too. For now I need to reparse with newer levels/ranks to know for sure. Personally I favour TC over FS as it is less likely to go wrong due to mob turning, bad pin, etc. Whichever you do first, follow it up with the other one immediately as Rogue's Fury high ranks lasts 71s so you can fit both discs in back to back and swapping to Executioner line is wasting RF given it won't stack. If you don't have the various Hasted Frenzied Stabbing and Hasted Twisted Chance AAs then you may not have these back up again. Don't waste RF - stack it with Razor's Edge instead. Burn 2 Epic Thief's Eyes Pinpoint Vitals/Flaws (if up) Executioner Discipline (or Eradicators, Assassin's depending on vintage). Not as good, but with extended clickies your epic will still be up so on short fights I tend to do this immediately following burn 1a/b (both RF+TC & RF+FS combos). Burn 3 Razor's Edge plus 7th year Veterans if available. Note this isn't applicable in all fights. Razor is a good dps boost, but it also increases incoming melee damage by 25% and spell damage by 50%. Be careful on AE RAMP or AoE spell fights. The reason for 7th here, is that it has "Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 55%", which doesn't stack with either Rogue's Fury or Assassin's discipline. Alas that means we have to stack it with our weakest disc by far. :-(. If you happen to have Rogue's Fury up and not FS or TC for some reason, use it with Razor's Edge too as it's the next best disc to stack with RF after FS & TC. Sustained Mode Although not as strong as Razor's Edge, don't negate Knifeplay Discipline. This lasts 3 minutes and can be reused every 5 mins. It's our bread and butter sustained disc, but take care to use Escape + Rest before you trigger if you'll need to as you cannot Rest with this running. Knifeplay is purely a backstab disc, so positioning is more important than ever.
It's not just TDS. Fights have been getting longer with more sustained mobs for a long time now. However it's also unfair to say "makes sustained classes pretty worthless for...". That's my whole beef infact! A sustained class (eg necro) on a 90 sec burn isn't worthless right now. They're not top dps, but they're not bad either. IMO they should be, say, 30% below the burst classes. *EQUALLY SO* the burst classes should be say 30% below the necros on the long sustained dps events too. We're not. Not even remotely close. Wizards maybe are, which everyone labels as "burstained", but I'd argue they're far better balanced - burst oriented vs sustained oriented, but with neither utterly trouncing the other on any duration. It's not just AC issues either. See the graph I posted. AC change just uniformly raises or lowers that dps, but it's unlikely to flatten it much. (Infact it may even exagerrate it by reducing AC). I get solid burns on Vitio - hitting 200k+ shows AC isn't a big issue - yet I've never managed to do remotely well on Captain Tita (non-ghost, 1st raid) and last burn even got beaten by an enchanter. This is repeatable, so I assume Tita has mega AC while Vitio does not. However both are broken for sustained. On our last Tita kill the top caster did 3x the damage of the top melee while on Vitio the top caster did 2x the damage of the top melee. Both are broken and AC isn't going to make that problem go away.
Tita gets a cycling buff that makes melee worthless once her health reaches a certain point; 75% or 50%. It makes it so you can't hit her with your MH or somethin; so no flurries or double/triple attacks while the buff is active on her. You not being able to keep up on that one mob is understandable. The melee are suppose to burn upon engage and then the casters burn when she starts doing that crud. For the entire encounter though, adds + Tita, rogues can do very well
