Test Update 08/12/2014 - Pet Changes Round 4

Discussion in 'Test Update Notes and Bug Roundup' started by Aristo, Aug 12, 2014.

  1. ~Mills~ Augur


    Your parses show pets doing ok everyone elses when they don't throw in a bunch of other variables in show otherwise. Its honestly like you are saying a group warrior under nttb, last stand, flash, aura, etc with the mob fully slowed, an enchanter spam casting runes and with a dedicated healer is having issues against single dark blue trash mobs when compared to pets. Because thats the scenario you keep showing for pets, single dark blue trash mobs vs basically a fully supported pet getting everything he can thrown at him in support (fortify companion has 160,000 damage cap at max rank it drops in under 20 seconds for any situation you need it so please don't tell me we have further activatables to meaningfully help for harder situations). You continue to frame parses as you see fit to push what was a non issue outside of pets not taking upper DI rolls.

    Pets are different and have always have been. If its really such an issue all of the sudden that warrants wasting dev time to make pets act like PC's then again I am waiting for my warrior pet to get his verisons of last stand, flash of anger, no time to bleed, fortify, auspice, field guardian, stances and on and on. Along with pets being able to hold aggro over PC's all while positioning the mob as we want. You don't get to change the one factor that pets do better and ignore to 10 others they do worse at. So by all means lets make this mole hill a mountain instead of Aristo and Eli working on the next expansions tuning and stuff as this is more important or so Daeguns framed parse data says.
    Krag likes this.
  2. strongbus Augur


    Having to use every pet support spell we have on a 1v1 trash fight of a even con or lower fight is not thriving that is getting by. 1v1 trash fights of yellow and higher and names and 1v2+ ya break it all out.
  3. ~Mills~ Augur

    He doesn't get it or doesn't care he has his point of view we just have to make sure others who might care or not understand it fully do hopefully Aristo does.

    Not every pet is a mage pet. Not every pet has a full set of armor on summon.

    Spamming everything defensively that the owner has on a slowed mob and then comparing it to extended tank parses that negate actual abilities uptime, or tank parses of unslowed mobs, or tank parses of poorly used tools, or tank parses that don't have the same support for them are bogus. Unless you are pushing an agenda.
  4. BigJimSlade New Member

    I may be misinformed, but I do remember a long time ago (ages in EQ) that the mage suffered from a 30ish% reduction in xp for having a pet out. I think this was the tradeoff for "the badassness" of the pet. Has this been changed, or is there still a 30% xp differential with the pet? If it is true, then any "tweak" to the pet needs to result in a "tweak" to the xp gain. If this is no longer the case than I apologize.
    Xeladom likes this.
  5. Daegun Augur

    Using every support ability brings the dps down to 'my merc fell asleep between healing' ranges of dps. 3k incoming dps? Your merc can handle double that easy. I showed you how strong your abilities are if you use them. Would you like to see me not use aegis, nefori, and auspice ... Still not help heal the pet ... And still have the pet not die?

    If you would like me to show you that I can.

    Point is you already don't "have to use every support spell on 1v1s ... I just showed you how potent your abilities are. I get it though. It's in your best interest if things outwardly appear bleak for you. Once again - this is just another case of available, objective data being more useful than subjective, anecdotal feelings.
  6. ~Mills~ Augur


    I am still waiting for the actual apples to apples comparison parses I asked you to run since you have access to all the toons. Not comparing what solo classes bring to the table to support their pet compared to a completely unsupported group tank.

    Pet with full owner support, merc healer and mob slowed for 3 minutes verse single trash mob in AH.
    Group warrior under nttb, last stand(his basic full support for trash), merc healer and mob slowed for 3 minutes verse single trash mob in AH.

    Pet with full owner support, merc healer and 2 mobs slowed for 3 minutes in AH. Try a necro pet for this.
    Group warrior under nttb, last stand, merc healer and 2 mobs slowed for 3 minutes in AH.

    Pet with occasional spike support, merc healer and no slow verse single mob in AH.
    Group warrior only using his routine stuff like flash of anger, aura, stuns, defensive proc buffs, his debuffs on mob, merc healer, no slow verse a single mob in AH.

    Pet with full owner support, merc healer and mob slowed for 3 minutes verse a named(single boss type).
    Group warrior using his turtle mode stuff, merc healer and mob slowed for 3 mintues verse a named(single boss type).

    Repeat with PC's in the group trying to dps.

    Then even after all those results showing what we all know take a step back and realize pets should be tuned to tank trash mobs but not as well as tanks and thats it. You wanting 50% dedicated owner support, mage gear for all pets and merc support for trash is your opinion on the matter. Otherwise they really don't need to be compared at all unless something is broken putting pets above tanks when they have the same variables included. Not taking in solo classes supports for pet and comparing that to an unsupported warrior which never was intended to solo or bring everything to the table for him or herself.
  7. Daegun Augur

    Would you like fries with that?
    Xeladom and feiddan like this.
  8. ~Mills~ Augur


    Did I open up this can of worms? Am I claiming everything is ok but only when you do this, this and this which you see as ok for trash mobs?

    I think I should start parsing how gigantic the gap is between warriors and everyone verse mob dps output. To the point that it now goes beyond tanking a mob and comes down to what is ridiculous differences in time just to react to aggro and how to lose it. The rest of us die in a round or two of combat, we don't want to tank but we should have some time to at least react. So warriors DI curves, base avoidance, mitigation and tools need to be reduced a ton in power to bring them back down to the rest of our worlds. Like it was for the duration of this game, you tanked better always but we had a chance to survive for a bit because it hadn't got as far out of whack. You can then give warriors 5 various runes and flashes to use in place of stuff like NTTB or last stand that are very fast reuse and have smaller individual impact. So they can spam hate spells and these self preservation stuff to differentiate themselves from non player tanks. That would be balanced. Rather than higher AC on gear, higher return on AC, higher innate mitigation and then everything being balanced around your activated stuff so that the rest of us are tissue paper in the wind, far from balanced. I can even highlight stuff and frame it to look professional and more important to game integrity then some might think.
  9. sojero One hit wonder


    Doing a tank under nttb and LS is unrealistic except for named, that is only up for 3 min out of 10. Group tanks are not going to use that on trash, they are going to cycle discs, not combine them like that. Parses have already been done to show what a war on a 10 min cycle doing his discs in a realistic fashion looks like. Same as for pets on a 10 min cycle.
  10. ~Mills~ Augur


    So is spamming our tank oh stuff on trash.

    No it hasn't as you have yet to show a tank with a slowed mob for that time frame. Your issue more and more shows to be what pet owners bring to the table on their own for their pets compared to what some tanks bring to the table on their own. When some classes are meant to solo and have diverse toolsets and warriors don't. Again show me a 10 minute parse of an intelligent tank using his stuff with a slowed mob. Verse a pet under similar circumstances. Don't add mage toys to necro pets or slows to mage pets or show mage pets handling two mobs and claim its normal for all pets. Then show an unslowed, unsupported tank half assing his tools or use a duration so long it negates all his tools impact and say look its broken.
  11. sojero One hit wonder



    If you are dying on trash in trivial zones in 1-2 rounds your doing something wrong. With silks getting shield of fate + their self runes (not including chanter runes), and other classes mitigating better, you have escape abilities to use within 1 round, you are not playing your class like you should. one round is 4 hits (usually PC's take 2-3) and its every 1.8 seconds. If you cant hit fade in that time, you need to readjust your hotkeys. If you are needing to do it more than once every 3-5 mins, you need to learn how to control your agro. I have seen silks tank (note TANK not root rot or pet tank) HA's before, so they can do that if you use all your skills and burn down the mobs. This is only possible that I have seen when they are overgeared for the content, IE cotf t2 full group gear in a t1 HA.

    You seem to be out of sync with the way this game is supposed to work, you are not playing a single player game, you are playing a game that consists of 16 classes that each have a place, and none of them are supposed to be great at everything. It takes teamwork to get stuff done, if they were to take that out of the game, what would be the point in playing it?
  12. Daegun Augur

    No, but for someone who's been incredibly rude and condescending I do find it funny that you think you can give me the equivalent of a shopping list like I'm some hired lackey.
    Xeladom, Zentara, Delbaeth and 2 others like this.
  13. feiddan Augur


    Spamming abilities that don't have long cooldowns.

    NTTB, Defensive, etc. disciplines can't be "spammed" like this. "Tank oh ****stuff" by definition cannot be spammed - Bedavir displayed using a normal tanking rotation to reduce DPS and nothing that has a long recast. It's like, more than anything, a Shadowknight using lifetaps and reprove or a Paladin using stuns - just typical things that can be used over and over and over again over the course of a fight to promote survivability and gain a more favorable outcome.
    Xeladom, Khauruk and Daegun like this.
  14. sojero One hit wonder



    Those parses would have nothing to do with each other, so they would not be relevant. You are trying your hardest to bring false information to the table and have others do it for you. Please stop, it doesn't help the pet cause at all. also casting a couple of pet runes is the same as a tank hitting reprove or recasting their minor defensives between doing other things. That is not out of line.

    If you want to see a war with his stuff over a 10 min period of time and a pet with their stuff and the same back end support group that would be relevant.
    Khauruk likes this.
  15. ~Mills~ Augur

    I am very much in sync with how this game works. I am not piling on complaints about some classes skill sets that they have had for decades and asking it to be changed because I picked a class that excels in other areas that might not now translate into how I want all the time. Again im not the one claiming balance as a veil for nerf calls. Pet classes and some others have since day one been able to do stuff that other group classes couldn't. What this entails and to what degree has changed over the years mainly because stuff has to be continually watered down for the median bell curve play style. Brutal content and requirements for some zoned and named would fix this you solo to much as a pet class issue. But it also offends the casual playtypes who might only play their class at 40% of its potential. Some classes who have tools that work well solo should not be overly punished because all content has become so watered down that they effectively can handle more then they used to. However they still always did more or what other classes couldn't claiming thats imbalanced is funny when its written into class descriptions.

    Sorry for defending my class and toon that I have dedicated an insane amount of time and money working on over the last decade because some test server freebie found an issue he doesn't like. Im not asking you to show this stuff for my benefit. I am asking you to show a pure apples to apples comparison which despite the zillion parses you have posted have yet to show.
  16. ~Mills~ Augur


    Just because they have different durations and refresh timers does not mean they are not the same thing. All those pet runes and such were added and intended to be used for hard content when pets were not up to par base wise. To save them from AE's, AE rampage or harder then normal mobs. Not to be used as every trash mob in game non stop or die abilities. Which is exactly what NTTB, Last Stand and other abilities are as well. Again just because on pet class has a built in slow doesn't mean you slow the mob for the pet and then say look over here at this tank parse without slow which was still better and say OMG. Thats not a pet vs tank tuning issue its a I don't like this solo'ing class doing this when I as a grouping class can't veiled to look innocent.
  17. sojero One hit wonder


    Then ask for apples to apple, you currently are not. Or you need to learn what an apple is, so that you can stop comparing it to a hammer.
    Khauruk likes this.
  18. ~Mills~ Augur

    Which of my requests wasn't?

    You might not agree but the runes were never meant to be spammed for all trash mobs. They were tough mob oh survive tools just as NTTB and last stand. If that now changes then thats a team decision but claiming otherwise is lacking knowledge.

    You might not agree but showing slowed mobs in one parse and not for the other is wrong.

    You might not agree that adding a giant outside support variable into one parse and then keeping unsupported in the other wrong.

    His main issues are solo friendly classes tool sets vs tank solo tool sets and that pets are different. As pets with slows and support compared to tanks with slows and support are not equal with Tanks blowing them out of the water as they should.
  19. feiddan Augur


    They are not the same thing. The proof is in the pudding, so to speak - if they were the same, these spells for pet survivability could not be used ad nauseum against the weakest of mobs.

    A pet class, going for survivability has these options available. On every mob, all the time. Just like lifetaps, paladin stuns, reprove, etc. (sorry I'm not super familiar with warriors' short-term stuff - I've never played one but I have a history with both knights). Heck, Bedavir even put out 24k DPS on his magician while averaging over 60% avoidance (post #367) and might have even forgot Iceflame.

    NTTB, Last Stand, etc. are more like "Fortify Companion" (and perhaps the RS pet - I'm not sure what its reuse is, but in terms of a defensive ability that has a short use and long cooldown period, cannot be used on every mob or cycled with other like abilities; as a coincidence, these abilities don't take up a spell gem either! even more likeness).
  20. Behelit Augur


    Coming from the guy still withholding his own data that doesnt make his case stronger. Still waiting on the healing parse for the SK in Argin-Hiz, given the amount of times you cast taps, proc'd passive taps, and hit epic in that duration there's no way you needed 2 cleric mercs to keep you alive. But you'll keep pretending that that data isnt relevant or doesnt exist so that you continue on with your crusade against Pets.