Test Update 08/12/2014 - Pet Changes Round 4

So first, some RS pet parses (EM 20):
/1 Tanking summary for: Sancus`s pet --- Total damage: 2263250 --- Avg hit: 7831 --- Swings: 359 --- Defended: 54 (15%) --- Hit: 289 (80.5%) --- Missed: 16 (4.5%) --- Accuracy: 94.8% --- Dodged: 7 (2.2%) --- Parried: 6 (1.7%) --- Blocked: 13 (3.6%) --- Riposted: 28 (8.2%) --- Absorbed: 0 (0%)

Sancus`s pet - vs - A rose viper
Attempts 335 100%
Missed 15 4.48%
Dodged 7 2.09%
Parried 5 1.49%
Blocked 13 3.88%
Riposted 23 6.87%
Absorbed 0 0%
4127 85 25.37%
4766 12 3.58%
5405 6 1.79%
6044 10 2.99%
6684 16 4.78%
7323 11 3.28%
7962 12 3.58%
8601 19 5.67%
9240 13 3.88%
9879 6 1.79%
10518 11 3.28%
11157 12 3.58%
11796 8 2.39%
12435 5 1.49%
13075 6 1.79%
13714 15 4.48%
14353 7 2.09%
14992 2 0.6%
15631 6 1.79%
16270 10 2.99%

A rose viper on 8/12/2014

Sancus - 29
--- Relentless Servant Rk. II - 15
--- Summon Companion - 14

Produced by GamParse v1.0.3

/1 Tanking summary for: Sancus`s pet --- Total damage: 4455599 --- Avg hit: 9019 --- Swings: 646 --- Defended: 117 (18.1%) --- Hit: 494 (76.5%) --- Missed: 35 (5.4%) --- Accuracy: 93.4% --- Dodged: 16 (2.9%) --- Parried: 12 (2%) --- Blocked: 38 (5.9%) --- Riposted: 51 (8.6%) --- Absorbed: 0 (0%)

Sancus`s pet - vs - A timber wolf
Attempts 646 100%
Missed 35 5.42%
Dodged 16 2.48%
Parried 12 1.86%
Blocked 38 5.88%
Riposted 51 7.89%
Absorbed 0 0%
3661 31 4.8%
4336 122 18.89%
5012 16 2.48%
5688 16 2.48%
6364 23 3.56%
7040 14 2.17%
7715 19 2.94%
8391 14 2.17%
9067 26 4.02%
9743 14 2.17%
10419 24 3.72%
11095 21 3.25%
11771 16 2.48%
12447 17 2.63%
13123 23 3.56%
13799 6 0.93%
14474 14 2.17%
15150 13 2.01%
15826 13 2.01%
16502 8 1.24%
17178 44 6.81%

A timber wolf on 8/12/2014

Sancus - 26
--- Rain of Blistersteel Rk. III - 1
--- Relentless Servant Rk. II - 25

Produced by GamParse v1.0.3

Feelings:
The RS pet is most certainly better. Thank you for the HP changes. Usually the pet lived at least 12 seconds (with a raid focus), allowing for a recast. Sometimes I could get 2-3 up at once, and sometimes I went from having 2-3 up to none at all. I'm assuming this is due to the decrease in AC relative to Pre-Argin RS pets (causing spikiness). So I still think it needs a bit more AC, but it certainly isn't as terrible as it was 1.0-3.0.

EM 20 Earth Pet Buffed with Cert Rk 2 and Burnout Rk 3 (white con spider):

/1 Tanking summary for: Jonobtik (Sancus) --- Total damage: 5671504 --- Avg hit: 5877 --- Swings: 1198 --- Defended: 153 (12.8%) --- Hit: 965 (80.6%) --- Missed: 80 (6.7%) --- Accuracy: 92.3% --- Dodged: 11 (1%) --- Parried: 41 (3.6%) --- Blocked: 68 (5.7%) --- Riposted: 33 (3%) --- Absorbed: 0 (0%)

Jonobtik (Sancus) - vs - A murkweb spider
Attempts 1198 100%
Missed 80 6.68%
Dodged 11 0.92%
Parried 41 3.42%
Blocked 68 5.68%
Riposted 33 2.75%
Absorbed 0 0%
2051 63 5.26%
2726 389 32.47%
3402 29 2.42%
4078 33 2.75%
4754 27 2.25%
5430 38 3.17%
6105 30 2.5%
6781 26 2.17%
7457 32 2.67%
8133 31 2.59%
8809 37 3.09%
9485 39 3.26%
10161 31 2.59%
10837 27 2.25%
11513 26 2.17%
12189 20 1.67%
12864 28 2.34%
13540 15 1.25%
14216 18 1.5%
14892 10 0.83%
15568 16 1.34%

Uhm... Am I imagining something or did AC decrease?

Three seprate EM 20 level 97 Necromancer Warrior pet with certitude, pet gear, and pet haste parses of pet changes v4.

Siddar - vs - Roon
Attempts 955 100%
Missed 68 7.12%
Dodged 25 2.62%
Parried 28 2.93%
Blocked 64 6.7%
Riposted 23 2.41%
Absorbed 5 0.52%
3884 217 22.72%
4811 26 2.72%
5738 38 3.98%
6665 27 2.83%
7592 41 4.29%
8518 36 3.77%
9445 32 3.35%
10372 26 2.72%
11299 34 3.56%
12226 34 3.56%
13153 30 3.14%
14080 22 2.3%
15007 29 3.04%
15934 27 2.83%
16861 29 3.04%
17787 17 1.78%
18714 15 1.57%
19641 11 1.15%
20568 19 1.99%
21495 32 3.35%
--------------------------------
Siddar - vs - Roon
Attempts 948 100%
Missed 75 7.91%
Dodged 16 1.69%
Parried 14 1.48%
Blocked 51 5.38%
Riposted 28 2.95%
Absorbed 4 0.42%
3884 234 24.68%
4811 32 3.38%
5738 30 3.16%
6665 23 2.43%
7592 29 3.06%
8518 28 2.95%
9445 36 3.8%
10372 28 2.95%
11299 25 2.64%
12226 33 3.48%
13153 38 4.01%
14080 26 2.74%
15007 29 3.06%
15934 32 3.38%
16861 24 2.53%
17787 22 2.32%
18714 10 1.05%
19641 15 1.58%
20568 17 1.79%
21495 49 5.17%
---------------------------------
Siddar - vs - Roon
Attempts 696 100%
Missed 48 6.9%
Dodged 11 1.58%
Parried 17 2.44%
Blocked 38 5.46%
Riposted 19 2.73%
Absorbed 14 2.01%
3884 165 23.71%
4811 23 3.3%
5738 23 3.3%
6665 18 2.59%
7592 25 3.59%
8518 21 3.02%
9445 13 1.87%
10372 20 2.87%
11299 23 3.3%
12226 27 3.88%
13153 28 4.02%
14080 17 2.44%
15007 20 2.87%
15934 21 3.02%
16861 15 2.16%
17787 17 2.44%
18714 15 2.16%
19641 4 0.57%
20568 14 2.01%
21495 40 5.75%
---------------------------------
DI1 rate is better in v4 by what looks like 5% but is still to low. D20 hit rate though is now becoming the primary issue. I would like to see a base 25% DI1, 4% DI20 for necro pets with certitude and pet haste with the addition of pet gear changing that to 30% DI1 and 3% DI20. That rate should allow ether two cleric mercs, are one cleric merc plus necro healing to keep necro pet alive consistently versus a T1 named. That will still enrage necromancers when it goes live but it will be close to what you have described as your goals for this change.

Earth pet got weaker. Air got a minor bump, but Earth is performing worse then yesterday.

Think the rushed out patch messed some stuff up. Looks like avoidance decreased.

Blue Con Spider (EM 20 earth pet, rootable) with spellhold off and iceflame proccing:
/1 Tanking summary for: Gann (Sancus) --- Total damage: 2747076 --- Avg hit: 5516 --- Swings: 758 --- Defended: 196 (25.9%) --- Hit: 498 (65.7%) --- Missed: 64 (8.4%) --- Accuracy: 88.6% --- Dodged: 15 (2.3%) --- Parried: 19 (2.7%) --- Blocked: 67 (8.8%) --- Riposted: 27 (4%) --- Absorbed: 68 (9%)

Gann (Sancus) - vs - A murkweb spider
Attempts 709 100%
Missed 61 8.6%
Dodged 15 2.12%
Parried 16 2.26%
Blocked 64 9.03%
Riposted 26 3.67%
Absorbed 64 9.03%
2726 205 28.91%
3402 18 2.54%
4077 16 2.26%
4753 26 3.67%
5429 16 2.26%
6105 21 2.96%
6781 10 1.41%
7456 12 1.69%
8132 23 3.24%
8808 23 3.24%
9484 14 1.97%
10160 12 1.69%
10835 10 1.41%
11511 12 1.69%
12187 11 1.55%
12863 12 1.69%
13539 7 0.99%
14214 6 0.85%
14890 7 0.99%
15283 2 0.28%

Seeya later. This kind of attitude is exactly what the game does not need.
Lookin forward to the tanks coming out of retirement now that they might be useful in group content again though, and imagine they will cover your $500 investment.
Also, correct me if I am wrong, but if those kronos exist on your toons, then they have already been bought and paid for. SOE has its money, you just dont have 30 more months of subscription if you dont click them.

Ive always assumed that the spirit of pet tanking was to fill the void in a pinch if a real tank was not there.
I cannot understand how anyone can argue that a pet should be tanking better than some raid geared tanks.
How can pet owners justify that they can solo named mobs with just their pet when a typical group would need 3 toons to fill the role of just 1 mage and their pet.
Mage pet + Mage should not = Tank + Cleric + Wizard

That seems to be the case, I'll post a before/after comparison in a couple of minutes.

"coming out of retirement"? I have never once in the last 5 years of playing EQ heard of a player tank quitting because pets could tank. Players could always tank about as well with group gear and better than pets with raid gear, it just required more effort both in playstyle and gearing. Do you really think that there's these hordes of un-subscribed player tanks just waiting to have a use again?

Do you really think the amount of player tanks "coming out of retirement" is going to hold a candle to the amount of pet classes that will un-sub if these changes are bad? You have NO IDEA how many pet class players there are, but I promise it is a lot. Partly, because pets WERE overpowered. And moreso, because this is a game with a dwindling population and people are drawn to solo classes to survive.

I promise you, the reason the devs are not rushing this is because if they do not handle it well, it could mean a big source of subscription income lost. I'll freely admit, pets were overpowered before, and in my opinion, thus far, the devs seem to be handling changing that well

Blue con Ember Trooper, EM 20 Earth Pet, Burnout/Cert, Spellhold Off:

Version 3:
Tanking summary for: Jabartik (Sancus) --- Total damage: 4426960 --- Avg hit: 4891 --- Swings: 1180 --- Defended: 188 (15.9%) --- Hit: 905 (76.7%) --- Missed: 87 (7.4%) --- Accuracy: 91.2% --- Dodged: 19 (1.9%) --- Parried: 45 (4.1%) --- Blocked: 84 (7.1%) --- Riposted: 40 (3.8%) --- Absorbed: 0 (0%)

Version 4:
Tanking summary for: Gann (Sancus) --- Total damage: 5115803 --- Avg hit: 5045 --- Swings: 1304 --- Defended: 199 (15.3%) --- Hit: 1014 (77.8%) --- Missed: 91 (7%) --- Accuracy: 91.8% --- Dodged: 32 (2.8%) --- Parried: 47 (3.8%) --- Blocked: 80 (6.1%) --- Riposted: 40 (3.4%) --- Absorbed: 0 (0%)

So beyond fixing the Earth pet (or are the patch notes wrong?), here would be my suggestions:

A) Increase our avoidance rather than mitigation going forward if it's needed
B) Make Prism Skin a defensive proc
C) Revisit activated ability Hit # and Damage Caps, and hopefully start switching them to duration based abilities (or larger damage caps)
D) Fix enrage or give the RS pet just a little bit more HP/AC/Avoidance/Etc (something to give it just a bit more survivability)

Sorry for posting so much

I'll also be getting some parses up in the next 3 hours or so. My parses are long enough and controlled enough (not only same mob but also same con level) to pretty accurately capture and report on even subtle shifts.

The shorter a parse is the more vulnerable it is to the RNG. I prefer to use only white and yellow con mobs as it gives you a much more narrow potential level. It stands to reason that mob attack is not only a function of zone, expansion, and mob name but also absolute level and comparative level with respect to the person taking the damage.

Short parses of less than 3-5 minutes may give good broad generalized data, but I like a minimum of 15-20 minutes and ideally 30+ minutes with 1500 or more hits to even out the rng. From a mathematical standpoint you really need a lot more to completely iron out the RNG - think 20,000 to 50,000 hits to be sure. This was especially important in proving that pets weren't seeing those high DIs. With no hits in that range over 50,000 hits you can reasonably infer that the chances are at worst 0.00002%. Knowing that at ac extreme saturation levels there is a predictable step wise drop off the higher you go, having no di 18s means the chance of a 20 is basically nonexistent.

Nec lvl 100
EM 15 ear
Companions Durabilty 15/21
sturdy companion - 11/18
2 merc on effcient (figured that would be about the same as one on reactive)
no cler merc vie, no abilities used by nec
no merc aa for healing
time 3409 seconds
yellow con mob
NPC dps 9184 vs 97 nec war pet EM 15
Dual weilding mob so posted both hit and slash
97 nec war pet EM 15 - vs - A ritual executioner
Attempts 3113 100%
Missed 183 5.88%
Dodged 54 1.73%
Parried 85 2.73%
Blocked 192 6.17%
Riposted 78 2.51%
Absorbed 4 0.13%
2685 873 28.04%
3285 102 3.28%
3884 100 3.21%
4484 104 3.34%
5083 96 3.08%
5682 110 3.53%
6282 89 2.86%
6881 93 2.99%
7481 87 2.79%
8080 95 3.05%
8679 103 3.31%
9279 83 2.67%
9878 85 2.73%
10478 93 2.99%
11077 85 2.73%
11676 66 2.12%
12276 43 1.38%
12875 47 1.51%
13475 43 1.38%
14074 120 3.85%

97 nec war pet EM 15 - vs - A ritual executioner
Attempts 2957 100%
Missed 180 6.09%
Dodged 66 2.23%
Parried 85 2.87%
Blocked 186 6.29%
Riposted 107 3.62%
Absorbed 4 0.14%
2685 748 25.3%
3285 93 3.15%
3884 102 3.45%
4484 92 3.11%
5083 97 3.28%
5682 96 3.25%
6282 93 3.15%
6881 91 3.08%
7481 103 3.48%
8080 95 3.21%
8679 96 3.25%
9279 90 3.04%
9878 94 3.18%
10478 73 2.47%
11077 75 2.54%
11676 51 1.72%
12276 44 1.49%
12875 50 1.69%
13475 39 1.32%
14074 107 3.62%

/G Tanking summary for: 97 nec war pet EM 15 --- Total damage: 31344345 --- Avg hit: 6120 --- Swings: 6418 --- Defended: 908 (14.1%) --- Hit: 5121 (79.8%) --- Missed: 389 (6.1%) --- Accuracy: 92.9% --- Dodged: 127 (2.2%) --- Parried: 178 (3%) --- Blocked: 394 (6.1%) --- Riposted: 199 (3.4%) --- Absorbed: 10 (0.2%)

Running another test on another yellow con diff type of mob same conditions, will post in the morning.

Daegun, please don't include the misses on a pet as DI1 hits and claim they are taking 50% DI1 hits. Aristo is obviously smarter than that thankfully. I know you want pets nerfed badly, but don't fudge numbers please.

I know Aristo is smart enough to understand the data. After multiple conversations with people here, it is clear a lot people are confused on know how to interpret the data. I suspect they are smart enough if they are willing to actually listen and understand, but as you know a lot of people don't really want to listen to me

I never have counted them as DI ones. I filter OUT the misses, dodges, etc. I remove them from the calculation. If the hit doesn't land on the target that doesn't count as a DI 0 - it just doesn't count as a hit at all. If a mob tries to hit you 1000 times but only actually hits you 750 times, there's only 750 hits to plot on the DI 1-20 percentages.

The numbers quoted above (the one gamparse spits out for you) that include those misses dodges and assign a percentage etc aren't going to give you an accurate percentage for any of the individual DIs.

Current overview of Mage (EM 20) pets, opponent was a level 100 CotF T1 trash mob.

RS specifically:



The RS pet HP fix works great, but the pet still doesn't always live until it can be recast. It never lives for its full duration (22s base). Considering it costs 3500 mana and doesn't last very long, I think it would be fair for the RS pet to tank better than all the other pets. The balance of this spell is the duration of the pet (fairly short). If it isn't tanking as well as any of the other mage pets, even the fire pet, I don't see the purpose outside its DPS, which is not overly impressive.

If we're giving HP upgrades to secondary pets (i.e. SK SHM ENC), the CLR pet (Infallible Hammer of Reverence) could also use an upgrade. I'm not sure how much HP it has exactly, but its less than 15k (a single hit from the mob I was fighting). Regardless, the CLR pet should be extremely low priority.

Just eyeballing the incoming hits, it doesn't look like earth pet saw a downgrade ... rather an upgrade as the patch notes would indicate. I'm coming up on 10 minutes of parsing - and I just saw my first DI20 hit.

Roger - vs - A forest elder
Attempts 1170 100%
Missed 110 9.4%
Dodged 31 2.65%
Parried 33 2.82%
Blocked 71 6.07%
Riposted 44 3.76%
Absorbed 0 0%
2353 442 37.78%
2944 22 1.88%
3536 39 3.33%
4127 25 2.14%
4719 32 2.74%
5310 33 2.82%
5902 30 2.56%
6493 29 2.48%
7085 37 3.16%
7676 22 1.88%
8268 40 3.42%
8859 38 3.25%
9451 21 1.79%
10042 18 1.54%
10634 13 1.11%
11225 13 1.11%
11817 11 0.94%
12408 11 0.94%
13000 4 0.34%
13591 1 0.09%

<Filter out the avoidance>

Total hits: 881
DI 20: 1 - 0.113507%
DI19: 4 - 0.5%
DI18: 11 - 1.2%
DI17: 11 - 1.2%
DI16: 13 - 1.48%
DI1: 442 - 50.2%
I'll be extending this parse to the 20+ minute mark.
Lol - pets are getting into the nuts range. I will likely repeat this parse but see what is possible when you add ac buffs into the mix.

Did these pets have standard, ubiquitous pet summoned gear?

I would suspect that if they don't, your hit spread will look very different if you equip them.

And here is why longer parses are useful, here is the completed parse (greater than 20 minutes). 1 DI20 hit was received in the first 10 minutes, 5 more followed in the next 10+ minutes. The longer the parse the more accurate the results.

EM15 earth pet with Rk2 certitude and burnout rk 2 haste:

DI:


RBR:


Breakdown:


Total "hits" - 1808
DI 1: 908 - 50.2%
DI 16 27 - 1.5%
DI 17: 29 - 1.6%
DI 18: 23 - 1.2%
DI 19: 14 - 0.7%
DI 20: 6 - 0.3%

Total hit % coming from the 5 most lethal DIs: 5.3% of hits

Average incoming dps without any slows/debuffs and no pet cast spell recourse or iceflame procs: 6550

Earth pets got a boost. To compare to v3.0 under identical circumstances reference this post:

https://forums.station.sony.com/eq/...2014-pet-changes-round-3.212775/#post-3113019

EM 20 level 97 necromancer warrior pet, certitude, pet haste, pet gear. Even con Agin Hiz spider. 1812 secs.

Siddar - vs - A murkweb spider
Attempts 3288 100%
Missed 193 5.87%
Dodged 85 2.59%
Parried 89 2.71%
Blocked 196 5.96%
Riposted 106 3.22%
Absorbed 4 0.12%
2726 1086 33.03%
3402 84 2.55%
4078 112 3.41%
4754 109 3.32%
5430 88 2.68%
6105 115 3.5%
6781 93 2.83%
7457 92 2.8%
8133 90 2.74%
8809 99 3.01%
9485 90 2.74%
10161 89 2.71%
10837 73 2.22%
11513 72 2.19%
12189 67 2.04%
12864 50 1.52%
13540 47 1.43%
14216 43 1.31%
14892 32 0.97%
15568 84 2.55%

EM 15 Earth pet with burnout, certitude rk 2, Psalm of the Forsaken Rk 2, Kaficus' Spiteful Lyric Rk 2, Doben's Spry sonata Rk 2

What do these songs do? They give player tanks visible 1136ac before diminishing softcap returns.

DI


RBR


Breakdown


Total "hits" = 1679
DI 1: 934 - 55.6%
DI 16: 29 - 1.7%
DI 17: 11 - 0.65%
DI 18: 10 - 0.6%
DI 19: 6 - 0.35%
DI 20: 1 - 0.05%

Total % coming from 5 most lethal DI hits : 3.35%

Average incoming dps: 6220dps

Compare that from without bard songs 6550dps.

Discussion:

This is the problem with trying to balance npcs, who tank so differently than the rest of us and enjoy such massive returns on ac effectively having no softcap. In the above example, both parses lasting 20 minutes, we went from 6 max hits to 1. We went from a 5.3% chance any given hit of it being DI 16-20 to a 3.35% chance (37% drop). Yet despite these pretty big shifts in spike potential and odds of having a max round, we only saw a dps drop of 5% (330 less dps). The base ac values on these pets remain very close to those ranges where you set yourself up for massive strings of nothing but minimum hits and extremely low probability of receiving high hits. I get that people want these pets to have reasonable incoming dps and maintain balance - but in repeatedly bumping the base ac values up and up and up (trying to fix a broken system by allowing it to remain variations of increasing 'broken-ness', we now have pets who when summoned and equipped with basic gear are within striking distance of the insanity we saw months ago. This is what happens when you allow npcs to not suffer diminishing returns on ac while players do - it makes it ridonkulously difficult to maintain balance.

Pet base mitigation is too high, especially given that they are not subject to diminishing returns on armor class like players are. Each piece of gear you give them, each buff they receive ... it's all going to mean a lot more point for point to them.

My suggestion (and I know it will be ignored) is to drop these pets so their base mitigation is around that of a warrior and BOOST their avoidance values to drop their incoming dps down to whatever range you want. Bear in mind that these pets being npcs will still not be subject to diminishing returns on ac buffs/gear given to them.

We're tanking different games right now - and it's going to be impossible to balance as long as we continue to do so.