Stonewood Bow Staff and Plane of War Progression

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by WDWolf, Apr 2, 2014.

  1. Fanra https://everquest.fanra.info

    Oh, to be constructive with my criticism, how about having the bowstaff also drop off of mobs in the first (unflagged) part of Plane of War? At least then I can get together with some friends and we can kill mobs there for (lousy) experience. At least then I would not worry about falling asleep.

    Sure, the mobs there hit way too hard and drop no loot at all and give really bad experience, but at least:
    • We are in the new zone.
    • We have to group together and do something together, which is what a MMORPG is supposed to be about.
    • It becomes somewhat of a challenge, at least more than worrying about some kill stealing jerk or going to Plane of Earth and finding out all the camps are taken.
    • It's slightly better than the current situation, which at this point is all I can hope for.
    Redrum_Redrum and Gumlakx like this.
  2. Endo Journeyman


    Don't worry, after you get past this small speedbump of the inital quest part in PoE, you will have massive amounts of time needed to group in PoW to progress to your hearts content. So massive in fact and so full-group dependent, that most people will get sick of it and give up on finishing the PoW quest line out, long before they get close to completing. :)
  3. Slasher Augur

    This zone will be empty in 6 months.
  4. Bearforce Lorekeeper

    My mind is freaking out because my post has mysteriously disappeared but at least you saw my response of me not saying there weren't any jerks!
  5. Edrick Augur

    Says everyone, about every zone besides GL/pok, ever
  6. Iila Augur

    Don't worry, the zone is already a complete flop because it's only the most populated combat zone in game right now.
  7. Gnomeland Augur

    The problem is that no one knows what the vision actually is. You talk about the original vision, yet in the original vision, druids and shamans were not primary healers, necros' role on raids was to feed mana to clerics, enchanters were for CC instead of ADPS, monks were not intended to be pullers, hybrids were not intended to be interchangeable with warriors, and kiting was considered an exploit.

    The concept of primary role wasn't even set in the original vision. Sure, there was the MUD concept of frontline tank, healer, and DPS, but the Holy Trinity at the time was actually warrior + cleric + enchanter. DPS wasn't even a proper role because every class was capable of it, and there were no DPS checks except in rare situations. In classic EQ, you were literally fine running a group with no DPS. But a slower and a puller - that was a must.

    Insofar as we are able to understand the original vision from the original game, there were no limitations on what pets were able to tank. Certainly none of this aggro transfer business that you see in PoWar. Pretending that this is a manifestation of the original vision is a sheer fallacy because one of my first memories in EQ is watching a group of necros 'raiding' sand giants in Oasis by pet tanking them. At level 50, pets were fully capable of tanking the content, including the highest group content at the time. Saying pets were not designed to tank is a revisionist statement that reveals just how distant EQ has come from the original vision.

    Without dwelling on the past, however, the simple fact is that EQ suffers from not having a proper vision of what each class's role ultimately is. Here, I'm not talking about what classes do in raids because that's capable of changing for each and every raid, per dev design. Rather, I'm talking about the contract that ought to exist between devs and players on what their class is designed to be.

    The absence of such a contract is what leads to the constant outcries in EQ over nerfs, class balance, which are frequently construed to be breaches of the contract - ie 'this is a fundamental feature of my class' - even though practically speaking there isn't and has never been a contract. The devs, by withholding their vision, whether out of laziness / lack of responsibility / because they don't know it themselves, effectively created an environment in which what players took for granted for years on ends is capable of being taken away in a single fell swoop, thus invalidating all the efforts thereby spent.

    The swarming changes were one such example. Pet tanking in PoWar is another. In both cases, you have the de facto fact on the ground, which is that both have been core features of the game for years on ends, being overriden by a sudden shift in design. This change is then justified - in this case not by the devs but by its defenders in this thread - on the basis that it was the 'original vision.'

    The problem being, of course, that there was no 'original vision' in the first place. No spelt out contract that designated what each class ought to be, but for the excuse of what it is now retrospectively not to be. Don't believe me? Then I challenge you to find a consistent, publicly known policy by the devs with regards to pet tanking in the last ten years. You won't find one, because it's never been consistent, and it's never been publicly declared - though different devs have given different opinions to different class reps from the player base.

    I have no issue with a design document that states: pets are not designed to be viable tanks for content. That is not the issue and has never been. Rather, it is the failure to communicate design, and thus the actual vision of what one is getting into with each class, combined with apathy towards the time and effort thereby wasted when such design is not communicated properly to players. It bespeaks of a dysfunctional design process, which I guarantee you has cost SoE thousands of subscriptions over the years.
    Marton likes this.
  8. Edrick Augur

    This, and Everquest is going to shut down the servers tomorrow. The zone is just that bad!
    Tharrg likes this.
  9. Gnomeland Augur


    Kiting is polysemic. The context of your statement was that when you find a zone that you are not able to kite in, you go to a different zone / find a group. While kiting is usable in other situations, the idea you are expressing is obviously solo kiting. I was lazy and did not convey this nuance, but it is not a fundamental err in my logic.

    The fact is, pet tanking is a greater mechanic of the mage class, especially in the group game, than kiting has been for all the classes that practice it. Progression groups were not built around a class's ability to kite trash mobs. Progression groups were built around a mage's ability to pet tank loot dropping mobs. Browse the Newbie forums and you see a constant litany of people telling players to roll mages/necros/beasts to use as tanks in group progression. Do you see people telling players to build progression groups around classes' ability to kite?

    While I don't disagree that both kiting and pet tanking have been subject to the lack of official vision that I mentioned in another post, the two are not analogous in importance to their respective classes. As I said, for the last 4-5 years people have been building entire groups around pet tanks on the basis that it's all they need to progress in group content. The same is not and has never been the case for kiting.
  10. Fenthen aka Rath

    I like PoWar - despite the nearly non-existent experience gained, I log on and am offered two groups almost instantaneously during prime time hours. I suppose merc healers just aren't that great after all. ;)

    PS - we're way off topic from the complaints of the OP.
  11. Edrick Augur

    This thread is pretty dumb now, I have to admit. Actually it was dumb a long time ago.

    And yeah, with berserkers and named, the most cleric mercs can do is sit there and look pretty.
  12. Fenthen aka Rath

    Ohmygosh you keep bumping this thread up. Don't you realize that every time this thread goes to the top of the list, a dev kills a pet-tank boxer?!?
  13. Iila Augur

    Really?
  14. Bearforce Lorekeeper

    That's terrible, think of the mages.
    Fenthen likes this.
  15. Sebbina Augur

    Logged a character into FV and the Stonewood bow prices seemed to be under 100k, and are under 150k on Povar, probably not as a good a drop rate, by end of first month live, I expect the required bow will be under 100k on all servers. I checked in to Earth a few minutes ago, and were 2 characters there, with another just arriving, maybe after breakfast I will head in and claim a tree or 4, though i do have other items on my to do list.
  16. Rauven Augur


    Under 100k? Thats the lowest its been on that server since Planes of Power came out. :D
  17. Random_Enchanter Augur

    This is no problem, not having a set role per class allows maximum flexibilty, knowing what a given class can and is exposed to do takes away any and all creativity and flexibilty that the class could have. Devs have repetedly stated that the most flexability will be built into the game, and in my mind, EQ needs it to survive in today's gaming world.

    As we do not know what the dev's were thinking back then this is all just hersay and the point can be argued either way untill everyone is blue in the face.

    Insofar as YOU understand. I was there in kunark there was a limit to what pets could tank. just as there was a limit to what a player could tank. There is a reason why DPS and CC ideas came about, either kill fast nuff to not have to worry, or prolong/focus the fight so you can effeicantly kill what you need to.

    congratulations! by having a contract of what your class is exposed to do in the group game, you now have by exention what your class is exposed to do in raids. This is due to the groupable versons of every raid that now exist. you are suggesting that by having a clear defined role, everything will be better. I state we have clear defined roles, but each class generaly fits into many roles not just one.

    Your statements contradict each other. you state "I have no issue with a design document that states: pets are not designed to be viable tanks for content." and they have stated as much for POWar ONLY if this contuines im sure they will make such a statement again. you state "That is not the issue and has never been." yet it clearly is because you contuine to post to this fact over one zone being designed differnetly and even being said as much by nearly every peice of information aviable at any time.
    Mithrandyr and SaderakhBertox like this.
  18. Shredd Augur

    I personally love Plane of War. . makes folks group. . can't pop to /ach to see what quest is needed. Only wish the wargs would drop faction items like the pigs do.
  19. Fenthen aka Rath

    The quest journal did not exist during the Planes of Power -- there's no reason why it's not being used now. May as well make all AAs past Luclin/Planes unusable too, if we're going the route of "go back to oldschool times!"
  20. Tulisin_Dragonflame Augur

    Have you actually checked how this mechanic works in a boss-encounter situation, or are you just assuming that it is elegantly implemented and doesn't hinder pet classes unless they're trying to pet tank?