Log onto a different server that you have no friends on and no high level character to use to twink. Preferably one of the low population servers. Then start the grind and do so with no support and no one at your level.. (possibly untill 85+).. then tell me if new players who dont know the tricks you do would get discouraged or not. This discussion is about making Tanks more viable... I can reroll a mage and be level 100 in a blink of an eye.. and be able to do so without the need for getting gear other then bazaar gear and without having to group the entire time. I would also be more viable as a character even without the AA's.. or with low amounts I would have.. it would not negativly impact the character to such an extent that it does tanks.
It's been mentioned before but saying "low level" tanks have it rough is misleading. No one has it rough pre-70, the J1 tank merc destroys everything and a few scattered pieces of defiant gear with no augs is still light years ahead of what dropped for those mob's expansions those levels. And even in the 70's there are earlier expansion mobs to fight which are a pushover. So it's really not till the late 80's, early 90's where tanks start hitting a wall on HoT, UF, and Especially VoA and RoF mobs. That's within 10 levels of the current cap. I wouldn't consider that "low levels". Tanks have it hardest right before they are about to step into current content. That's their absolute hardest point.
I guess the terminology is whats getting thrown around wrong. Yeah I agree 0-70 is simple and a breeze.. I would argue that 75+ is when the tanks feel the crunch... and we also need to understand that most players may not have access to J anything mercs.. they may not have access to Journeymany mercs. So at level 75+ up untill around level 85 its still a solo game... as most server populations are so limited that you either have to box.. Then you toss in the idea that these players might not have journeyman level mercs.. and while it is possible to get to 85 this way... the next step to get to 95 which is the F2P cut off is pretty much out. I dont see it happening.. and if they didnt quit at the 75-85 solo grind.. then they will quit now. This is no low level and I agree....... We need something to help boost tanks at the 70-90 levels ranges.. since its still a solo game.. and at these 20 levels.. the tanks become practically group reliant and those groups dont exist.
It's really quite simple T1 gear sucks and T1/T2 mobs are overtuned. Attuneables are fine for racking up AA on LB mobs 10-15 levels below req, but good luck using tradeable gear to tank something that drops an upgrade to it. Progression content is tuned around beta chars that are max level with max AA, max gear plus a bunch of augs from the previous expansion. This is quite the feat for your average grouper and generally the old T4 stuff is better than T1 gear for tanks. So you see level-minus-five tanks without new AA's filling holes with tradeable gear and getting wrecked. All while other classes buy the expansion, rock whatever they were wearing, go to town on day 1 and everyone asks "Why there are so many Mages these days?" The tier system just fails for tanks. Way too many pieces to farm and the difficulty/upgrade path just doesn't make sense for your average player. Folks in this thread (and mostly raid-geared ones who have this opinion, mind you) want to spin that as making the role 'prestigious' but all it does is make the job completely suck 10x harder for Bobby Tankface than Jeffrey Fingerwiggler. So to fix the problem is just as easy - tune T1 and T2 down. But wait! That will dumb down the game down you say! Not if you Tune T3/T4 UP. Everyone gets something to do and life is peachy. The failure of expansions like UF/VoA is that T1 mobs faceroll all but the previously maxed out tanks, but in pretty much every expansion it's sucked for group tanks to make the T1-T2-T3 jump.
Soloed untwinked to 65ish. Grabbed a group in The Hole (Returnee leveling up). Soled more saving all the tradeskill drops. Soloed High Quality Lion Skins and foraged the other fixin'. Had Precient Fleeting Quivers made. Sold a bunch. Sold the trade skill items when people started working on shawls. Floating in pp, bought Othni and weapons from that content. (At a later date I could have as easily obtained non-combat collectables, but the alt only sold about 60kpp worth of those). Acquired a full set of hotzone augs. Watched for people doing Anguish. Went 4 times getting some loot twice with complete strangers. Etc., etc., etc. For some of the content the alt did use Headshot. But let me point out that for most he tanked solo. Tanked as a Ranger. If a Warrior can't match or exceed that he has issues. Oh, also did the same kind of thing with an 85 Paladin. He initially came into his mini "fortune" camping Yaks and BSS's when Paladin with Ghoulbane sitting in the safespot was a guaranteed pickup group. Admittedly the Paladin took advantage of swarming undead before people called it swarming. Defiant -> Othni (buyable) -> OMM/Reis (buyable) -> level drops from RoF yard trash It could not be easier and the armor is much better than the armor non-raiders used when they beat the heck out of the content when it was new. Over the entire lifetime of my Warrior main I soloed liked 25% of my exp and for years he soloed most of his augs. And need I point out that IF a Warrior does not establish the kind of social network needed to regularly get groups who is this tank planing to tank for anyway? There's no difference between this and a hermit Cleric. Neither are a soloing class.
Do you not get that the game no longer has people around typically below level 90 that is not just an alt being P-leveled... also you know the way to get to the top... most players.. might not... and so they dont know all the tricks to get the plat or to get the gear. You seem to think that there are tons of players sitting in the 70-90 range that are grouping daily. They dont exist on all servers... and I doubt the population of characters in that range exist on yours as well. Its hard to make a social network if the social network isnt there to be made!!
Yeah I've only had at least 1 gold account (now 2) so never experienced Apprentice tanks post 50 but I imagine the 50+ TSS mobs would even start to crap on those, I remember the aviaks in black feather roost were when I started to notice my journeyman 1 tank start to need breaks to regen. They'd prolly kill an apprentice tank outright, DSH mobs other than the farm certainly would... I guess its understood if you're f2p better not try a tank heh. But really not many classes other than the dps casters are gonna do good in f2p. Even a class like bard which doesn't need a lot of gear or AA is gonna have a pain trying to level solo unless the player is great at charming...I think F2P really is like a "demo" of eq, which sort of makes sense
Do you not get that my alts were not PL'd? Do you not understand that learning how to obtain things and getting them is a skill and not an unfair barrier to advancement? Do you not understand that with Heroic Characters likely to happen sooner than later there will likely be hordes of level 90's lfg... ...and capable players making substantial effective effort will advance while the giant sorting mechanism that is EverQuest will inevitably have those who do not advance cry foul? They did it on the progression servers. They voted repeatedly to have content held back so characters that were not PL'd or twinked by higher level characters but earned their advancement were held back by the least common denominators. It was a regular hobby for those who did not make effort. For years and years there was a two person group geared box team that regularly beat year long expansions, leveled, AA'd, and geared up in group endgame gear in ~3 months. One can't claim al the level 100 players were PL'd twinks when groups of not PL'd non-raiders show those who make little effort up.
And yet if they play a caster they tend to be ok... up to the level 95. They dont need to worry about the fact they get only 1000 AA's.. they dont need to worry about augments.. and Defiant gear is enough to get them to the top. They can do so even with Apprentice mercs.. which Is why there are so many of them.
Clerics and Warriors are still the backbone of a good group. If you can't make it as one of those classes IMO you are unlikely to make it in the group game as any class. Especially given how easy it is now to acquire high quality armor and accessories.
I Just dont think your arguments work with the current server populations. Again I really dont see any groups around that are doing group missions etc. Most people are just Pleveling alts.. and I can get into those groups if I pay... You seem to have this Illusion or delusion that there is this great body of players that you can group with and that its all about hard work. Well yeah it is about hard work, but if you have no one to group with and you are a tank, it doesnt matter how good you are, you are not going to make it. You also will find that eventually the store bought gear will no longer be sufficient.. and you will be in worlds of hurt. Look at my profile... I consider myself geared well enough for my level. I worked hard to get the gear.. I have the best augs I can get for my level... and Im working on my AA's. But im doing it all solo... because the player base does not exist. In fact I look for people offering spots in their Plevel grinds because It helps. But getting groups.. yeah.. I have not seen any... in a long time. I also bet you twinked your alts...
What exactly are you arguing for, a certain percentage of the population should be excluded from each expansion? Every month X number of players at the bottom end should be forced out? Would you mind explaining why?
Exactly what I am arguing is that Everquest is a character advancement though substantial in-game effective effort MMoRPG. If you do not make substantial effective effort you do not advance. Not because of the game - because of you. (A not PL'd/not twinked two person box team regularly beating 1 year expansions in ~3 months proves the point. People had 4x as long and failed.) (and btw given mercs, AA acceleration, and high quality gear dropping from yardtrash the bar has been set low....really low.)
Again.. you can make all the effort in the world.. but if you are a tank that relies on grouping and there is no grouping that exists anymore at your level... you are screwed..... That is not the players fault.. that is the fault of the game at its current state... Do you not get that point?
If you are a tank and you can't find anyone to tank for, who exactly do you propose that you are tanking for? Perhaps you did not read the Warrior class description: Warriors are a key to a good group. Warriors do nor fare well adventuring alone. We've never been a solo class. However, I definately soloed my brains out until I was useful to others. If a player does not have the social skills to find a casual/family guild and people to tank for or the fortitude to grind through it on his own (with all the lovely buyable and drops from yardtrash gear available these days) then he's probably better off rolling a can do it all by themselves class. That is not the game's fault - that's a deficiency on the part of the player. The EverQuest sorting mechanism doesn't play favorites with individuals. You measure up or down ya go. 100's, 1,000's of Warriors many of them starting on content long after it was current have measured up. (Of course the more successful didn't play 4 hours a week and were pretty determined).
Not all dps classes can. Not even all dps casters can. I know chanter isn't dps, but as a cloth caster...a true noob, F2P chanter is going to have a hell of a time trying to charm solo to 95. The idea of reverse-charming is something even veteran players sometimes choose not to mess with. Druids and wizards are screwed vs anything that summons, so if they're soloing to 95, they're either killing just a tiny fraction of mobs or dying a lot along the way ("oops those mobs summon") So really; it's only the caster dps pet classes (necro and Mage) that can. Not even all pet classes, a BL won't so good trying to pet tank all the way to 95 with few AA. So what you are agreeing is 2 classes, the most notorious for being good solo'ers, can solo to 95 on a F2P account with few AA and gear. Which again I'm kinda saying "um...yeah" I do agree with u that mages especially are everywhere. They have a lot of pro's right now, not many cons
How much effort is enough, how many hours per week do you think is an acceptable minimum? I am not talking about the high end here, not about raiding, not really even about the top of the group game, just enough of it to make it through to the level cap?
With heroic characters on the horizon and 90 content grouping opportunities to increase substantially as a result players behind in the progression are going to get a chance to show whether they are disadvantaged or don't have game. I rooted for underdog guilds during SOD. I'll root for able to become successful non-raiders who advance as a result of Heroic Characters even though I don't approve of the program. I'm not going to have any sympathy for players that don't succeed. You can talk PL'd Twinks all you want - Heroic Characters is the biggest PLing and twinking out characters event in the history of the game. If you Heroic Character PL'd twinks can't make it now its your fault - not the game's, not the guilds you don't bother to join and don't bother to make effective if you do join them, not the player standing next to you. If 75% of the game's non-raider population can put in enough effective effort to get a 'B', come home with a 'B' or don't come home. (see a Spartan mother's advice to her son - Come home with your shield or on it.) If you lack that kind of determination you probably are better suited for quad kiting mobs in Cobalt Scar. That much effort.
Druids and wizards would have no more problem soloing up than most necros and mages. It isn't true that necros have no fear of summoning mobs. It might take a bit longer, but it is easily doable. As a necromancer I soloed, avoiding summoning mobs all the way up. Gear was never an issue really. Reverse charming is easier with some AAs, but you can get those easily enough. The higher you get, the easier it gets, but reverse charming has been going on since original EQ, and runes and skill are more important than gear in my opinion. All of these classes could get by with just defiant gear. It wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world, but it wouldn't be very hard either.
