Test Update 12/06/2013

I see Feerrott lagged out by SK's and Berserkers. I'm more inclined to think the changes in those zones were targeted at those two classes, based on lag, than any other.

Do you have math to back up those claims? If not you can't say whether or not you are correct, it is speculation. Simply because you are an ADPS class does not mean you are an expert on ADPs things that will or won't effect Magicians. I do know for a fact that spells were already hard landing on Neriak with Malosinete on the mob, removing 25 off the top-end for that raid WILL hurt. If you can not land nukes, it makes it hard for the 10% to add up to anything.

You called for a blanket nerf (against forum guidelines I might add, Piestro should hopefully be here in the next 3 months to rectify) though making pretty much everything you have said biased. Even if you had a relevant idea or thought, your post there basically erased any and all 'good' ideas you would have towards this topic.

So like I asked why punish Magicians when you have said other classes lag zones out also? lol. I have not seen a reason from anyone why one gets nerfed and the other does not, because it is not the Beaming that people are upset by (at least from posts I have seen) it is the zone disruption which ANYONE could do that.....

So, these changes make it where zone disruptions will merely move from one zone to another zone not yet effected by the new summon-hammer changes.
What did that seriously accomplish?
Is having the zones where the disruptions will move to, are those zones next to have mobs summon?
Should we just make everything summon at this point?
I just don't see the point in making some zones not summon even addresses the issue, unless you claim only those specific zones were required for some reason to be disruption free.

Since they better not make all zones summon, shouldn't the real way to fix this be finding out a way to make the classes not able to disrupt zones?

Like I said, it isn't classes. ANYONE can disrupt a zone by simply taking 1 mob and running it through the entire zone picking up the whole zone and running it around. It requires run speed 5 and ANY class can make a zone terrible. The thing to fix would be how mobs react not any class, because they would have to nerf every class to truly make it so someone can not disrupt a zone.

Oh come now..that is your reasoning?
It is clearly a certain set of classes that have abilities that are actively being used by certain people in specific ways that are regularly disrupting zones.
Making *some* zones always summon just means the zones people can kite will be near non existent, since the few remaining areas will now house all these "zone disrupters"
How is "making most zones summon" a fix to this problem at all?
You either make all zones summon and "fix" it, or you actually fix the problem.
This is an attempt at a fix that doesn't address the problem outside of making most zones deemed unkiteable, and leaving little to no alternative to people who kite without zone disruption.

A person merely pulling every single mob in the zone and running around with no attempt to kill them, and disrupting other people's play? That is obviously a major problem that is hounding zones on a daily basis. That is such a rare hypothetical situation it is hardly worth mentioning. Be reasonable.

It was 60% pre-nerf.

What was making it broken was the stacking of the AA at 60%, the innate chance from AA, and then the added bonus of personal tribute.

If they were @ / over 100% with 60%, they're looking at a 20% nerf, which puts the AA at 40% and them at 80% chance with everything stacked. It has like a 10 second recast. The ToTD proc lasts 1 minute....

Druids will still be able to survive at least 8/10 death dealing attacks (pending the exact % from Innate AA and Personal Trib, could be 9/10--- but still making the abuse it was receiving impossible). Once the buff removes itself, oh no, you have to cast a .5 second buff again that costs no mana.

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Thanks for the beam adjustment! I was getting tired of feeling like I was wasting my time for alts playing anywhere else because the exp was so poor comparatively.

If you looked at the mob counts, there are still plenty of mob types that do not summon in each zone.

The reason the zones were targeted specifically is that there are characteristics for zones that are "good" beaming locations. Not to say that they are -required-.

1. Do the mobs aggro on their own?
2. Is there an open area the run around and avoid death?
3. Are numerous other players frequently in the zone?
4. Do a lot of named spawn in the area that are difficult or unavoidable?
5. Is pathing ridiculous.
6. Do the mobs to be kited cast a lot?

If you notice, they didn't touch the Ahkeevan mobs in PoS. If you go to Luclins room, there are 42364375 of them. They do not summon. They do cast, however. If your mobs don't stay together, it makes it increasingly hard to beam them since they will be spotted all over the area you're using to kite them-- ultimately making it easy for you to run right into them while avoiding the brunt of your train.

There aren't a lot of other zones that will be particularly effective for beaming. I can think of maybe Resplendent Temple and Windsong. Older content was untouched, like Cooling Chambers and Convorteum for Headshot (granted, at 100, it's a MUCH smaller return than at 95, but they're as good / better than Feerrot).

I think they should have just ponied up and fixed the mage beam, not the zones. As someone else posted early on, wizards still farm tradeskill drops just fine without theirs.

Farming Tradeskill Drops.

Oh, also, the proposed fixes still do not address the fact that Mages are out DPSing every other class by 2-3 x's on current raid content because of the way the beam works.

You can also note the lack of any penalty whatsoever for mages, but the self imposed DoT for wizards.

Magician Beam-

Wizard PBAE-

Lol. typical response to a broken ability. They took the most ruthless suggestion to a serious issue without addressing the actual issue.. (still doesn't prevent using certain abilities vs actual current content raid mobs).

But... if people actually played long ago they know a larger portion of 52+ mobs summoned initallly. It never stopped solo'ing, it did however prevent any form of multiple killing of mobs. All mobs should obviously have the " The living saps that summon are now tinted darker to warn of this new ability." tag.

It at least prevents large careless pulls.

Kind of like how Mages could or couldn't beam? Such a double standard.

You want to nerf a class because A class can disrupt a zone by running mobs around it. I said and showed how any class fits that criteria making a valid counterpoint to your argument. Just because you do not like that point (which no one likes something that makes their point less valid so I can see why), does not make it any more or less valid. Why should Mages get nerfed more then any other class that chooses to disrupt zones? Simply because they disrupt the zones is the only point that has been brought up. And when this goes through I can absolutely still go and disrupt a zone with mobs at 100%.

You should be reasonable and read your posts. You want to nerf a class because you need to adjust where you exp. You want to nerf ONE class while blindly looking the other way where other classes are doing the same things. Either say all the classes need to be nerfed or adjusted or whatever that are taking part in zone disruption or NONE of them need to be adjusted. Because the argument being made fits with way more then one class. Yet none of the other classes are being brought up in this discussion.

I am going to bed now. The moderators are doing an excellent job not removing nerf calls though (even when Nerf is used in the same sentence).

Continue being biased on this, it is pretty funny how your building a case on one class where it fits about 5 others as well. But again lets keep it hush hush and continue getting Magicians nerfed as if it hasn't happened enough over the last year. Love how the player base enjoys pushing people out of the community.

Any class being used to regularly disrupt zones should have a closer look taken at them. There should be something done to prevent zone disruption while still allowing classes to use abilities for their intended purpose. Do I believe any class's ability is to kill hundreds of XP giving mobs at once?

If it comes down to " letting X classes disrupt zones on a regular basis " or "letting Y classes being allowed to use zones for regular use " I will always vote for the Y classes.

You don't think pushing the kiters, the root rotters, the soloers out of the community is any different?

See this from someone else's perspective. Yes. There are a few zones left that people can kite in. Guess what, all the people previously disrupting the zones that were hit with the summoning fix are just going to congregate there now, leaving almost nothing.

Don't worry, you will still be able to mass slaughter your grey TS mobs, because we all know how vital that is.

The change to certain mobs summoning sets an awful precedent and does nothing to stop the worst issues at hand -- as others have said, beam kiters will find new places to kite, leaving other (legitimate) kiters with fewer places to go. When they find new places to go, are those zones just going to be changed to have random summoners, further whittling away at viable solo kiting content because some players are taking advantage of a problem that the powers that be refuse to fix in a more direct, worthwhile way? What of the damage to casual kiters? I play a druid and I have always enjoyed kiting, particularly charm kiting. This nerf further limits the kiting options that I had before and, if this becomes a trend, will severely impact my gameplay. This change disgusts me in a way that few other changes have. Why would I want to continue playing (and paying for!) a game that arbitrarily takes away viable means of game enjoyment? And because I know someone will say it, no, beam kiting is not a viable way to play because it is an exploit, plain and simple. Pulling so many mobs as to lag them to snaredom is an exploit.

If this is an attempt of ending means of killing more than 5 mobs at a time, why provide a solution that ultimately does not affect beam kiting? Why aim for middle-ground legit methods of kiting (standard, charm, and reverse kiting) when there are such worse offenders to target?

I cannot fathom why the devs would opt for so much collateral damage that doesn't even affect the biggest issues, but they need to reconsider their approach.

lol, name 1 that can pop a healer merc+ a pet and take out what a mage can. Give a beam ability where pets just reduce the xp or dont equate in the sustained dps. The solutions were mentioned long ago, forever your class fought against a class nerf, now all classes will see the actual issue..You brought it on yourselves with your own selfishness..

As mentioned and more or less proved, it does nothing to stop current raid situations no other class has.

Have to say that the nerf of monsters so that they summon at 97% is hitting too wide.
As some mention where shall some kiting classes now kite?

As some has mentioned the thing is very likely intended to hit on the beam kiters, but you hit a lot of others too.
So instead of that, why not hit directly on beam kiters, change so it is limited in numbers like wizards, and or put in chance of backfire like on wizards.

If you(devs) have made so beams are necessary on certain raids, then introduce a new beam spell, that can only be used in raids.

Now all this is said, then: I do have a magician, I do not play much and dont beams, I do have druid, I do not kite, I do have wizard, also dont kite, Have zerker/sk do not swarm, same with ranger.

So change to beam would not effect me, also summon dont effect me.

What I personally would say would be most fair is that it, if you have broken a finger when you come to me, I do not cut off the arm. (So imo change beam spells, so they have same type of effect/targets for all classes)

On items, You have made copy/paste items(some say), so why not also do that for beams.

If something is broken, it's broken everywhere and not just in the places where other players can see you.

Regarding the impact of these summoning mobs on other players, I believe the intention is that *some* mob types summon while some do not. Solo kiters can pick and choose if they want to take out a few at a time. If you want to round up the entire zone then, well, you can't. Welcome to the same game the rest of us play.

I still don't think the fix was the right one though. All that will happen is mages find another zone which hasn't yet been fixed and beam kite there instead. It'll be like whack-a-mole trying to keep up with the zone changes until every single zone has been nerfed.

That's silly though. Yes ANYONE could disrupt a zone, but a couple classes gain from it while the rest don't and so, suprise suprise, there's a huge class bias in who disrupts and who doesn't.

It's pointless to say you need things like beam to farm TS, to do old quests, etc. The rest of us manage without those spells, many of us with a tedious kill 1 mob at a time modus operandi (ie melee) and the world hasn't collapsed for us. No one *needs* the ability to mass kill several dozen mobs all at once, and that includes both Mages and SKs. Fixing zones instead of abilities just seems wrong therefore.

This has already gone live. What the items need now is tribute values.

Pie, you realize that the summoning changes do 0 to alter what you're saying the actual problem is right? As it stands, anyone (like you said), can grab a mob at full health and lag out any zone. Yet, the change was targeted at several specific zones and altered mob ability to summon. The potential for disruption remains unchanged with this patch according to your logic. I think it is clear what the underlying intent of the change was but since you rather go with the high road, just pointing out how the change hurts multiple classes which have solo capability yet does 0 to change griefing (based on what you've said).

No, I don't have math/parsing for resist rate with +/- 25 resist; convenient for you I suppose. I also don't think I'm an expert on ADPS whatsoever and have never claimed to be one. That said, anecdotal observation has led me to believe that aside from initial engage (pre-Tash/Malo), I see few resists unless there is a specific mechanic to mitigate (in a raid setting). The resist rate is almost a non-issue in the group game. Mods on Rk 2 spells plus any debuffs available make spell resist checks arbitrary. You do realize that there are other classes with magic-based resist nukes right? So again, +10% will have an effect on DPS. I don't remember where the post was but Mages initiated the conversation to change the AA and spell stacking. Do you have numbers to back-up your claim that mobs are more resistant in the Neriak raid so that the -25 resist has a noticeable effect?

And I actually didn't call for a blanket nerf, I stated my opinion that I believed the current changes to be associated with the idea.

Well I chose the 20 target limit on purpose.

It was me that showed the 200 AA from the beam kiting log. That was around 80mobs , solo and under lesson with around 3k AA's. That would be 50AA's with a 20 target limit, which is similar to what an SK can get doing Ripo.

Regardless that some people think mages do that in 3mins or what not is not true. I spend around 5 mins gathering the mobs up and bunching them, then Beaming them down, it's only the final 20% where i turn on the burn - twincast/firecore/first spire - to get them down quickly and preserve the lesson on other toons. It prolly takes 30 mins per pull. I don't think 50AA's (under lesson) over 30mins is excessive in that regard.

Also 20 targets, means it's just as effective on raids, so there is a no lose there.
20 mobs also would be running at full speed. So it eliminates the warping/lag issue. Personally i use a bard to selo's me, so that doesn't affect me that much. But for others it would increase the time to get the 20mobs down considerably as they have to run to get distance. The alternative of course if for them to still pull 80 mobs to cause the lag, but only dpsing 20 of them at a time - that would be the logically choice. Even doing that, I think the risk vs reward would be about right.

Certain events lend towards berserkers and magicians, and certain events lend toward other classes. If you're stating that magician's are tripling every other class on the nightly combine, you might want to look elsewhere then just blaming beam.

Lets make mobs ignore pet aggro then, so mages have to group as well. Lets see a mage solo without their pet and see how long they last with summoning mobs, that is what wizzys to deal with. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. Isn't that what your asking for everyone to have to group with others now?

This change isn't going to affect mages soloing abilities they can still do it, just not with beam kiting. Wizzys have NO other options. Wizzys have been kiting since level 39 when they get their first snare spell. They nerfed the ability to quad years ago and now they have nerfed the ability to kite completely. That is a huge change over something we have been doing since the word go.

This also nerfs my pulling technique...no more bringing the mob back to camp damaged. I'm gonna miss days when I bring a mob to camp with a nice chunk of it HP missing.

There were far better ways to do this and I am not happy with this change.