Sword and Board DPS > Dual Wield

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Espiritun, Jun 7, 2013.

  1. Zalmonius Augur

    He doesn't understand that Hybrids are a derivation of us, not the other way around. Rangers are warrior / druid types. Their caster focus makes them sacrifice some of their warrior training (tanking). Paladins are cleric / warrior combos. Their cleric training makes them sacrifice warrior training (DW), SK's same with necros. Bards are unique in that they're a warrior / something else rogue-like hybrid, but same principle; sacrifice tanking for other tools and tricks.

    Who cares what knights can and can't do, and who cares what rangers / bards can or can't do? They're based on warriors, not warriors based on them.
    Sinestra, Elricvonclief and Damoncord like this.
  2. Battleaxe Augur

    Stop campaigning to have the Warrior heavy plate tanking class returned to being a plate Ranger when:

    1. It only makes sense that when we care about the damage we are receiving we:
    a. Use a shield and get survival benefits
    b. Ask a group member to debuff the mob
    c. Use defensive discs

    Elidroth, we are told, responded to a request to give DW more survivability with DW is not for tanking. Soooo, it kinda follows that where/when ever DW is used tanking, it will be without additional survival benefits.

    2. Prior to shields being made more practical for Warriors we routinely went without benefitting from Shield Block and shield AC being not subject to the softcap. I'm entirely in favor of 2H and DW being for DPS (but thanks in part to ripos and attributable DPS Warriors would make up for a large part of S&B's lesser normal melee DPS.

    When we are really turtling up it's disciplines and not small changes like shield or no shield. Likewise when we are really DPSing it's disciplines and (should not be) so muchshield or no shield.

    A shield appropriate weapon must do more DPS than 1 of our normal 1Handers used alone (else why would knights receive higher ratio weapons for use with a shield?).
  3. Brosa Augur

    Plate Ranger? I don't see anyone asking for Ranged DPS, Nukes, DoTs, CC capabilities or Buffs. We only ask for DW to be practical again. Why BB are you so afraid of this? You seem to be terrified of the notion that you may see warriors out and about tanking with two weapons not a shield and a sword.

    Until shield line AAs came out we did just fine DWing while tanking (still do actually). The added defense capabilities of S+B made it great to take on challenging encounters. I switched regularly back and forth depending on the survivability of an encounter until I realized that DW was obsolete DPS to S+B. From that moment on my second sword remained in its sheath and a shield was grafted to my arm.

    Seeing posts on DW tanking is appropriate for LBs and lower makes me laugh. That does nothing for a warrior who stays at end game content. DBs and up is all I see. What's wrong with: lets say losing %20 defense by S+B standards and gaining %20 dps over S+B if tanking with DW? Yes yes BB I know "DW is not for tanking" blah blah blah. My Bst tanks DB garbage mobs without discs/activated abilities and see other non tank classes do it as well. So why not a warrior?

    We are not knights so stop this nonsense. I wont be surprised BB when you campaign for the warrior only weapon to be a lance. Speaking of unused graphics how about a mace (ball and chain version) for a change. Haven't seen one of those for years.
    Sinestra, Zalmonius and Elricvonclief like this.
  4. Drathos_BotS Elder

    Sword and board is more dps... SoE decided to make us more like knights ... the devs have spoken... they refuse to let us be viable dual wielding anymore. End of argument... As much as I loved dual wielding and not looking like a knight tanking I gave up on SOE ever differentating warriors for knights and have come to understand the devs won't be truly happy until a warrior is nothing but a knight without a spellbook. Give it another expansion and Im sure knights will be handed final stand or something equivalent.
  5. Damoncord Augur

    Thats just it Drathos DW ISN'T more DPS than S&B when dpsing.
  6. Drathos_BotS Elder

    Hence why I Said Sword and Board is more dps.........
  7. Zalmonius Augur

    Isn't Carapace pretty close? =P
  8. BoomWalker Augur

    All details from Alla website so blame them if wrong on specifics...not a Warrior/SK/Pally...

    As it reads...Carapace is 20% for 2 mins...Final Stand is 45% for 3 mins.

    But with Carapace for 20% / 2 mins and Mantle for 35% / 1 min plus the SK epic thrown in (1:45) during one or both of those discs...and if you want to try using Unholy Guardian...36% / 2 mins with negative impacts to SKs (self healing it seems) it can get close.

    FS is up in 10.5 mins it seems while Carapace is 7.5 mins and Mantle is 15 mins...and Unholy Guardian is 12 mins. SK Epic looks like a 5 min recast.

    And with Fortitude versus Deflection...Fortitude seems to work from all sides while Deflection is front/shield side only....so there is a difference.

    Given this list of discs...it would seem that Final Stand is better than SK discs (and probably Pally...didn't look them up) overall...but SKs are close and getting closer.

    Just seems SKs (and Pallys) have to click more things to stay alive...while Warriors get to click the "heal me more" or "DI is down" hot keys while waiting for the disc to time out...and then they hit the "Need rez" hot key.

    *steps back from the flammable text in the post*
  9. Gragas Augur

    Historically the best duel wielding warriors were:

    [IMG]
  10. Koveras Elder

    This is without a doubt one of the BIG reasons why the Shield Specialist AA and the Improved Shield Specialist AA need to undergo a serious change.

    All what needs to be done is make it so Shield Specialist deals more Bash Damage, make it so Shield Specialist is completely focused directly on the Shield! Not the One Handed Weapon (as well as the Fist) while using the Shield.

    To simply put, whoever thought of the idea that Shield Specialist should improve the damage of the One Handed Weapon while using the Shield (or the fist for the matter) really messed up, the description not only doesn't make any sense what-so-ever but in light of learning to why Warriors DPS is becoming increasingly unbalanced among with Paladin/Shadow Knights One Handed Weapons over damaging Two Handed Weapons, this needs to change and that change needs to happen very soon.

    Whoever made it so Shield Specialist should improve the damage of the One Handed Weapon (and fist) while using a Shield is the kind of person who has unintentionally whacked something out of proportion not meant to be whacked out of proportion, the moment to fix up the issues that EverQuest still has even to this day is near, this is that issue.

    As for Improved Shield Specialist, that needs to be changed as well so it too affects the Shield itself and again not the One Handed Weapon (and fist) while using the Shield.

    In trade as I mentioned in an earlier post, Paladins, Shadow Knights and Warriors should be given a Knight/Warlord version of the Ranger's Scout Weapon Mastery, I care not how long this takes so as long as the developers become willing to do this for the unbalances in this game are already taking it's toll.
  11. shiftie Augur

    The reason shield specialist increases damage is due to the way swing aggro works it was intentional the only fubar Is the over inflated dps as the aa line progressed
  12. Snowjoke New Member

    Based on the above comment, Is there a particular point (if your gear was pretty even between mh and offhand) where you would want to swap from DW to S&B. i.e. at this particular rank of AA is when it goes past it in effectiveness?

    The replies seem tailored mostly to the high level crowd so I was wondering from a levelling/aa perspective when I might want to start looking for a good shield.

    Thanks!
  13. Battleaxe Augur

    I wouldn't base anything on the above comment. While Shiftie doesn't lie about Warrior mechanics, he is a knight and does describe them in partisan ways.

    For example I could reply that there's nothing wrong with Slay Undead except:
    1. Knights are given 1Handers and 2Handers with ridiculous ratios which because of the multiplicative effects of SU can produce absurd Slays.

    2. While it's true knights tend not to benefit as much from 1H flurry attributable DPS, they do get 2H related AA's. Those ridiculous ratio 2Hdrs are pumped up further as a result.

    3. Unlike the 30 second or so burst DPS abilities of many classes Slay works all day long vs. undead. Paladins have their preferred content, but in group content they campaigned to remove Warrior preferences for a mob type (unmatched ability vs dangerous mobs is raid only).

    Or we could talk about how overpowered stun is when it actually stuns (it's incredibly overpowered).

    The truth is there's nothing wrong with S&B DPS except it's too high when one isn't compelled to use a shield or perhaps not even getting hit but rather DPSing with another person tanking. A situation that's true of knights as well - they often use a shield when they aren't really in danger from tanking a single mob (as Shiftie has said, if you aren't using a shield you aren't tanking enough mobs).

    As a Warrior, don't bother using a shield unless you are facing near certain death until you have Shield Specialist. After that, take a look at where knights are using a shield in the content you are doing. Since our non-disced survival is practically the same where knights use a shield you'll probably want to use one. We're all tanks ya know. (Just don't be as aggressive as they are multi-tanking or swarming. They have extensive combat self-healing and we don't).

    Btw, when actually tanking you'll likely be using an aggro rather than a DPS weapon and therefore doing less damage then you might otherwise. Knights don't have that issue.
  14. Damoncord Augur

    BB Snowjoke's post had nothing to do with paladin abilities, he was asking when SS makes S&B more DPS than DW.

    If I recall correctly SS was 5% damage per rank, and the tipping point was around rank 10 when S&B started to outperform 2 1handers of equal teir.

    so basicly until you get SS10 or higher S&B is better survival, then it starts moving ahead on DPS, and once you get ISS and SS done it's better survival, DPS, and agro.
    Sinestra likes this.
  15. Battleaxe Augur

    DC, Snowjoke's post did not ask "when SS makes S&B more DPS than DW." Reading is fundamental.

    DW is probably never better survival than S&B.

    As a non-raider you might best "start looking for a good shield" when aggro is no longer an issue when you have a shield equipped. Keep in mind that your best DPS weapon won't be your best aggro weapon and "from a levelling/aa perspecptive" what matters is:

    1. Can you hold aggro.
    2. Are you being a mana sponge.

    Whether you are in The Hole, at The Farm, or at Tables in PoFire those two things trump 5 or even 10% more DPS done by you. In fact, other than ocassionally using furious you may well find yourself using defensive rather than offensive disciplines - that's less DPS than you could be doing - the DPS classes will be killing the stuffs (exciting when Headshot and/or Assassinate offs mobs in seconds) and hopefully you will be getting hit and trying to spend AA's fast enough.

    Good enough aggro to use a shield
    Shield Block is a plus
    anything beyond that (SS or ISS) is just more reason to use a shield

    (From a leveling/aa perspective is a bit different from a kill the PH's one at a time, moloing 1 mob at a time for exp, or kill the named mob perspective. Leveling/aa it's how fast can you keep OTHER people killing.)

    Ask the question as "in the various types of groups Warriors are commonly in" and DC's reply is adequate. But then assuming people buy AA abilities sensibly - Since our non-disced survival is practically the same where knights use a shield you'll probably want to use one. so is mine.
  16. Snowjoke New Member

    Actually Damoncord was right in what I was asking and answered with what I needed so thanks! Looking at the AA purchasing info around level 80 would be the time to swap it seems for dps purposes. That's right around a new gear tier which is handy!

    Battleaxe's second post answered a different question (but one that I could have been asking to be fair now I read what I posted again) as well so cheers for that info as well.
    Sinestra likes this.
  17. Damoncord Augur

    Yeah S&B should always be top survival no matter what.
  18. Janakin Augur

    I would like to see them make DW viable as a passive decapitate type ability in-line with what bezerkers have. I want to go all Conan on green con mobs :b
    Dre. and Damoncord like this.
  19. Zurd Lorekeeper

    Ok ok I admit it. I'm the warrior who wants to exclusively tank the most difficult content dual wielding while wearing only a loin cloth....JK of course. But I am increasingly in agreement with expanded some serious adjustments that don't entail more button mashing and which improve our flexibility vs knights and perhaps add some additional green to LB solo ability.

    But previously it seems like the suggestions while nice still didn't scale or flex us out vs other classes

    How about....with stance aas

    Dual wield = base or 100% DPS / 100% def + green slaughter ability (expanded) (solid solo and routine group)
    2hand. = 150% DPS / 75% Def (true dps for when we are not the tank)
    S&B. = 75% DPS / 125% DEF (the big mob tank requirement)

    The reason for the difference that DPS from us will not skew group challenges as much as DEF. so simply flipping scores is not actually equivalent.

    And yes I think berserker should have been an aa path for warrior instead of a separate class ;p
  20. Dre. Altoholic

    1. Nerf SS
    2. Return lost DPS in weapon-neutral ways
    3. Give DW a trash-friendly proc (stun/hhe/decap)
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