Zack Snyder's Justice League

Will - "Us Humans" don't even quite know JUST WHAT we want our "Superman" to be - even right NOW.



At its HEART - "THE ABOVE" Superman FAILS, at least to ME - when we live in a country right now that is REGRESSING as far as Police Reform....Voting rights.....

How can I "Be all I can be as Val Zod" when society isn't ready to accept the FULL ME as a Black Man EVEN NOW?

Do we want him to "All of a sudden" be a Black Kryptonian....to somehow someway "Atone for the utter lack of Diversity in Comics" from back in the day....



Present, perhaps - a FAUX IMAGE that we've all "AWOKEN" as a Society? That we're "All Equal"?

Hat tip to Poster Foolsfire for this intuitive image that is all too telling.

Now, speaking of my man Val Zod....it is interesting that his origin dates 2009 - right around the time of President Barack Obama taking office - as a worthy tribute to him....but ALSO right around the time of Dwayne McDuffie's firing from DC Comics

https://www.cbr.com/dwayne-mcduffie-fired-from-justice-league/

Mr. Dwayne McDuffie (RIP) is / was - the Co-Creator of THIS Unique and Original Character



Augustus Freeman IV - Icon......the TRUE and FIRST "Black Superman".....from 1993....SIXTEEN YEARS before Val Zod Superman.
It is quite unfair to blame Zach Snyder for "Josstice League 2017" and "Man of Steel" when DC / WB went ahead and trusted him with the reigns of this thing - especially when he was going to bring a complex character already to the Big Screen in ONLY ONE movie...

Captain America - in contrast - got what? THREE MOVIES?

You mean to tell me that Captain America is more famous and important than Superman?

I've already discussed The Complex Superman before on here - in THIS thread and in another just over the last few months.

Also - Folks STILL bothered by THIS, apparently



As well as seemingly countless other things about Zach Snyder's Superman.

There are TOO MANY thoughts from "US FANS" as to what / who we WANT Superman to BE......so don't blame Zach Snyder for presenting to the world whom HE THOUGHT Superman SHOULD be



Everything considered I believe Zach Snyder did a good job.

It's absolutely fair to lay some blame and criticize Snyder for Man of Steel and his other films because DC/WB gave him the reins. It was his vision that drove the whole thing and it's fair to say he missed the mark right off the bat with MoS.



Being an inspiration, providing hope for people? That was what appeared to be the core of Snyder's Superman from that trailer, and it never really materialized in that film. Even with a well-known character like Superman, you've still got to establish those core aspects of your character in a film. It's the basis for everything that comes afterwards.

Meanwhile this clip from the Supergirl TV show accomplished in about two minutes what Snyder really couldn't do in a two hour long film, which was set the stage for who and what Superman was going to be all about on that show as well as any other related appearances.



The reason why Cap, Iron Man and Thor got three films and why Guardians, Spider-Man and even freaking Ant Man are getting third films? Because they established the core of those characters in their first films. With those core aspects established well they were able to explore more aspects of the characters. It also helps that they got the essence of ALL those characters right and made good films using those characters.

The level of fame or rank in the super-hero hierarchy of a character doesn't really matter because you still have to make a good film using that character. That initial trailer was encouraging to me because it seemed to get the core of Superman right. But the finished product? Not so much.

Snyder's a good filmmaker, but I can't say he did a good job with his DC work. If he had, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

That 2 min and 19 sec clip has an ALREADY ESTABLISHED Clark Kent in DC Cinematic Universe - as well as an already established Kara-El. This is for the TELEVISION series.

For the purpose of Man of Steel Zach Snyder tried to - admirably - to start out on KRYPTON, introduce his Kryptonian Mom and Pa, send him to Earth, grow him up through his TEENAGE years, establish the WORLD AROUND him during that time - with the bullying on the bus while he was a young teenager, interactions in the Bar Scene, Kal-El saving the Oil Rig workers, and him THEN finally finding the craft buried in the ice.

Zach ALSO, admirably, established his EARTH PARENTS and the conflicts his dad had, especially, with raising him.

He wasn't even ESTABLISHED as Superman, yet.

Then, Zach had to create a villain (Zod), kill off this villain for the purpose of the NEXT film, Batman VS Superman, and THEN get a Justice League movie for his THIRD FILM (and FINAL one, because WB media didn't have a clue, apparently)............................................

WB Media, Will - eats its young. Plain and Simple. That 2:19 clip you showed me is NOT ONLY a feeble repeat from the Superman Returns film



But IT ALSO WEAKENS this "Superman and Lois" Superman in that he ACTUALLY NEEDS HIS COUSIN to help him, thus making him look weak in comparison to Superman Returns version.

LOOK - I get the Female representation. No issues with that. But you'd better make sure you have someone critiquing your stuff that is ignorant of Superman Films - you "COULD" get away with Sloppy Seconds repeats.

That stuff don't fly with ME.

I've been watching Superman films since the 70s. lol.

Zach Snyder - with the playing field he was given - did an good job. WB Media out to be ashamed of themselves for NOW trying to throw him under the bus.

Again, Will, lol - if WB Media is NOW trying to enlist Ta-Nehisi Coates and J. J. Abrams to present a "Black Superman" - as I discussed earlier in this thread - this simply hammers home the lack of DIRECTION that WB Media has.

Don't use Zach Snyder as a scapegoat for your perceived failings with Superman Movies.

There are TOO MANY Writers / Directors - for Comic Books AND Comic Book MOVIES - that are - to quote my man Dr. Octopus from Spiderman 2



They would rather race bend....gender bend....steal parts from OTHER movies (see the stolen plane scene from Superman Returns Movie from 2006 AND from the Superman and Lois television series recently).....and are either too scared OR TOO YOUNG to actually CREATE NEW STUFF from historical characters.............................................

Actually do DEEP RESEARCH - READ the COMICS - the new stuff AND the OLD.........................

Zach Snyder - like it or NOT - created NEW stuff for Man of Steel. He put HIS OWN STAMP on Batman VS Superman AND "HIS" Justice League movie - not the Josstice League one from 2017.

He DID NOT have a Superman that rescued kittens from trees....made the EASY choices....try to set examples ALL the time and PLEASE everyone....

But yet I left the MoS movie LOVING the character because he WAS a beacon of hope and - at the end - actually CHOSE HUMANITY over Zod's crazy plan to rebuild Krypton OVER THE BONES of humans.....

He thought enough of humans to ACTUALLY GO TO CHURCH to seek GUIDANCE from the Pastor on how to handle Zod's return



Please show me ANY scene in Modern Superhero television OR movies that actually has it's HERO seeking guidance from a Man of God.......................

Zach Snyder GETS IT, at least to ME.

What a way to HUMANIZE a character. Spot on, at least to ME.

This clip is what you consider is the core of Superman? Yes they established what kind of Superman they are showing, by showing a one dimensional character. Yes it’s a Superman I know and love straight from the Superfriends cartoon when I was a kid, but that doesn't make it a story worth retelling. There’s some fun in the show where we just get to sit back and watch Superman do Superman stuff while we have the technology to translate that from the cartoon to the television. In general though, it’s pretty cheesy.

Zack asks profound questions about what people would do if a Superman character actually existed and he tries to answer that while trying to stay true to the character. What’s great about MOS is that Zack tells that story while also entertaining the crap out of us. Superman Returns was a better Superman 3 than Superman 3 but it didn’t have any growth from Richard Donners Superman and it failed to entertain. MOS is 2 and a half hours long and probably an hour and a half of that is pure action. We start off on Krypton then boom action, movie slows as we get a Clark montage traveling north with some flashbacks, but then picks up with the discovery of the ship and his first flight. It then slows down slightly as Lois searches for him and almost immediately after that Zod invades. That’s the first act, movie isn’t even half over. The movie then begins building up again until Lois releases Jor-El onto the ship and from then on the action is non stop and you go for this amazing ride as Superman saves the day. You really need to watch it again and you’ll see what I’m talking about.

Hope is not something seen but something unseen. Hope is trust in the known but unseen. Superman giving himself up to save humanity gives hope. The Soldiers seeing Superman as their friend gives hope. Superman destroying the only ship that could bring back the Khryptonians for the sake of humans gives hope. The hope is really felt from the perspective of humans, that turned over Superman to save themselves no questions asked and then their reversal of that as they realize he is their only hope in surviving what is coming. In Zack Snyder’s Superman, Superman isn’t already an established character in the world. So he had to give a reason why people would trust this all powerful being that could burn the whole place down on a whim. Superman literally does nothing but try to earn the people’s trust throughout the movie. However, Superman is also new to the whole superhero gig and acts like a noob at times, like when he dodges the gasoline tank and it blows up behind him, you see this look on his face like “oh I didn’t expect it to blow up and destroy this building” because guess what, no one has ever thrown a gasoline tank at him before in his entire life. He’s not thinking about collateral damage as much as he’s just trying to stop Zod. Over time and with experience those things change but here in his first outing he’s still figuring this all out. The fight is suppose to be a little sloppy. Which is why someone like Bruce Wayne feels hopeless for the first time and begins his descent and anger to Superman. It’s all just brilliant.

Snyder couldn't tell a cohesive story if his life depended on it. He has a fascination for deconstructing superheroes and the mythology surrounding them but he lacks the ability to lay the foundation for his stories to make sense. He usually pulls off interesting visual effects that don

Snyder couldn't tell a cohesive story if his life depended on it. He's fascinated by the concept of deconstructing superheroes and their mythology but he doesn't have skillset to lay the to support his visual effects. In BVS you see Jayson Todds' Robin costume but not Dick Grayson or Tim Drake anywhere it was just an exciting visual to see without any foundation laid down to support showing it in the 1st place

Who would you pick to write/direct a story about Icon? Milestone Universe wasn't widely supported by comic book fans although it was much more diverse than dc. Static was retconned into something I don't recognize or support, My apologies for the initial post it was an unfinished thought

How would you know whether Milestone wasn't widely supported by comic book fans? Do you have PROOF of this?

Milestone originated in 1993.

Before you go down this rabbit hole, I can post here MANY Fan Pages from their comics showing a dedicated (and DIVERSE fan base).....I can ALSO post several AWARDS they won back in the 90s for their comics.

You call.

Evidently, it was "Widely Supported" enough to have DC get its (destructive) hands on it - I'd guess to make itself look "More Diverse"?

"Oh look - Milestone is getting BIG! Let's acquire them and it will make us look Diverse! Then we'll subsequently bury the characters and not use them!"

You have to look NO FURTHER than THIS



to tell how DC once received Black Superheroes.

Heck - they INITIALLY made JOHN STEWART look like a Rabid Nat Turner with a Power Ring, back in the 70s - until they allowed intelligent writers to actually PORTRAY him as a close to normal Black Man with some issues dealing with society but in a REALISTIC way.

In Zach Snyder's Justice League, they supposedly had Wayne T Carr's John Stewart that was SUPPOSED TO, evidently - appear with Martian Manhunter at the end



but THEN they YANKED him - because they supposedly had "Other Plans" for John Stewart - perhaps in the rumored Green Lantern series on HBO MAX?

Do you honestly think DISNEY / MARVEL would yank an ICONIC Black Superhero at the end of a movie just so they could portray him in another series?

Missed Opportunities.

Zach Snyder gets it.

The minute I finished watching Snyder cut I logged into DC and made Cavill's Black Suit

Let's see....Ryan Coogler (Black Panther)....Ava Duvernay.....Stephen Spielberg.......I'd even trust the Man Himself ZACH SNYDER to work on Icon...

Zach's work developing CYBORG in Zach's Justice League was AWESOME. Loved the character and he brought him to LIFE. He would've done the same with John Stewart.

Would Warner Brothers / DC Media - actually have the COURAGE to STEP AWAY from themselves and TRUST one of these talented people to WORK on a character as rich as Icon?



Or are they perhaps too afraid of bringing to the world one of Dwayne McDuffie's creations



...which would THEN prove that BLACK WRITERS could actually CREATE diverse and POWERFUL and original characters?

RIP Mr. McDuffie. When this man passed he left a void in Comics that has NOT been filled yet.

His talent was right up there with Stan Lee and Jack Kirby.

MANY of the Justice League Unlimited episodes have Dwayne McDuffie in the closing credits and as writing the episodes as well. See for yourself in the closing credits.

DM worked on that cartoon series from when they were just Justice League until they expanded into Justice League Unlimited.

He passed Too Soon.

How about you pump your brakes before you attempt to come for ANYONE it's a petty look. Milestone was a great comic book company but their sales slowed down in the 90s and eventually they stopped publishing, Michael Davis left and started Motown Machineworks and Denys Cowan followed. None of this happened IMO , due to the quality of the books but rather the overall comic book industry. Sales went down across the board

It's not so petty when YOU are perhaps the only one on these Forums that will even ENGAGE me about Icon, Rocket or Milestone Comics.

There are / were, a few other posters here but they mysteriously don't talk about him much.

Perhaps these posters don't know about Icon, choose to NOT know about Icon or perhaps are under some sort of Gag Order to not discuss him.

My personal frustration is not directed at YOU, Ntwydimela, but at the overall INDUSTRY and the ignorance of Milestone Characters and the emergence of THIS character



Why in the WORLD would you present THIS version of Superman when ICON was the ORIGINAL Superman Equal?

Calvin Ellis / Val Zod originated in 2009. Icon was created in 1993.

I've heard from a few posters that the "S" is a KNOWN BRAND. That is a weak argument when you JUST had Freakin' Polka Dot Man



...in the SS2?

HA!

If you would like to, Ntwydimela, we can discuss Icon, Rocket and Milestone stuff in my Icon and Rocket thread. I'd rather leave this thread for Zach Snyder / Justice League 2021 if possible.

Were you aware that a few years ago Dc considered getting rid of John Stewart? Maestro had to fight for him to be in justice league, because Hal Jordan was who they wanted. John Stewart was the strongest lantern. I'm down for that Controller

Also - some would call me "Petty".....I'd call myself PASSIONATE.

In the wake of the George Floyd Tragedy and the "Awakening" of this country, supposedly, comes how folks view themselves in Comics.

This is a RICH and POTENTIAL-LADEN time we're living in....one where I'd hope that both DC and Marvel present worthy characters with Diverse backgrounds.

Marvel knocked it out of the park with Black Panther. I'd love to see them do this with Blue Marvel



Blue Marvel is a Hulk / Thor / Captain Marvel - level superhero that I would LOVE to see on the Big Screen.

DC?

We have Zach Snyder's properly developed Cyborg



And who else? Black Manta from Aquaman?

I'm an Old Head, Ntwydimela. My "view" on what is diverse is, unfortunately, not the same as some in the "Younger Generation". But to ME you present ORIGINAL CHARACTERS and not go with "Brands" because you think they sell.

I'm Old Fashioned like that.

You give ME several million dollars and a production crew and I'd blow DC Cinematic Universe out of the water.

I'm Old school as well but unfortunately Marvel is screwing up BP they should recast him treat him no differently than they have Supes, Bats, Flash, Wonder Woman. I don't believe that Snyder is a good Director, he has decent enough visuals but can't tell a coherent story

As much as I love both Hal Jordan AND John Stewart I'd say they were CLOSE to being equal - with John Stewart actually being promoted to a GUARDIAN at one point



and with Hal Jordan there was a 2006-ish Justice League comic where he actually created a PLANET-SIZED Pulley Device for Superman to pull Earth out of Harm's Way



https://viewcomics.me/justice-league-of-america-2006/issue-29/13

Truly INCREDIBLE STUFF - with both Hal Jordan AND John Stewart!

yes i made a Master Builder toon years ago. we are both in the DMV. I asked kevin grevioux if he thought it would be possible to make a Blue Marvel animated movie and he said it was expensive to create