Work In Progress Work In Progress: Weapon Mastery

I skipped pages 32-60 so i am not sure if anyone has said the same as Foe, but thank GOD someone has stated the truth. A lot of people are complaining and crying about some of these fixes as if they did not already know they should have been fixed. Yes, there needs to be a discussion about it, but to say things like "way to shoot yourself in the foot" and "this game is only catering to the casual player" is too far...you may be able to say that later...but its too soon right now...

Jens/ Tunzo - couple of questions

I have only seen the question asked but not answered. Would it be possible to incorporate other super powers into the last hit? So instead of a triple chance for dmg crit make it a triple chance for healing/power or even taunt.

From what I am gathering the MW combos are slow and hard hitting, which is kinda like all might powers (excluding Rage) and I saw the post that said with an immunity you'll be able to pull these combos off in PvP. Is the same true for PvE, is there any thought in that while the slower combos are as good in dmg as the clipping combos, no one will be able to enjoy them because mobs will already be dead and against bosses it will be highly unused (least melee).

All I got for now, thank you for this ability to be part of what you guys are creating. Truly appreciate it!

what i would like to know is why you have to buy a dlc for certain weapon related upgrades, i.e. shield and now the mastery everone has weapons so why limit it to leagendary or ppl that have the dlc. and b4 ppl say this is another that needs to get a job and get legendary i only play as a legendary but i just find that weapons are part of the base game so it should come with the base game

I can do it with Nature to some pretty large results. I out DPSd another Nature user by letting him manage all the DoTs (SG, Briar, VL and Harvest...he could have them all). I just leaned heavy on using the phantom triangle with Impaling Thorns.
Grenade=>VP->Impaling(Grenade tap)=>Jump(Grenade registers)=>Grenade=>VP->Impaling(Grenade tap)=>Jump(Grenade registers)=>etc.

The myth with Phantom Triangle is the thought that only HL can do it.

yeah, exactly.
im serious though. noone i play with ever talks about it.
not saying it doesnt happen though at all, i just assumed from what i read on the forums that it was mostly done on pc and not really worth the trouble on ps unless you were HL.

and im going to leave the discussion to the people that actually care about it.
i really never mean to butt in on the topic. i have no feelings on the subject personally.
my bad.
oh well.

Obviously you were not watching the Anniversary celebration as Jens (Spytle) was playing on the Playstation and was pugging through the On Duty tab. And sadly, he was getting grief and other assorted BS from players who had no clue who he was because he was playing to "their standards". So yes, I would say they are in touch, they do pug, they do whats out there. No commenting on the rest of it because its a silly circular argument for something in the very early stages of development. If you want to see how a proper "In - development" or "Alpha" thread should be conducted (ie with respect, constructive questions/input/requests/suggestions) go look at an EQ Landmark forum. Its not everyday that devs even bother to let you in on the inner workings of things this far out. The way the last several pages of this thread have been would be an indication that they shouldnt bother doing it in the future.

Assumptions always being made, threats of leaving the game, QQ's and rallies of "OMG NERF", and the always well thought out "you are out of touch because you live in your private servers and dont play with the rest of us, who obviously know more than you do".

Sit back, chill out, eat something/watch tv/have a nice cold beer, and just be patient for a change.

Are you saying you're doing a phantom triangle AND a grenade after that? as at least on a PC there's still the grenade animation, IE a delay before youc an do another white damage move, which is why it's typically phantom-power vs phantom-second grenade.

While playing today I imagined... what if I could do weapon mastery right now with my weapon. My conclusion:

• Combo length of weapon master combos: Instead of having WM-Combos at the end of already long combos, they would be more useful if they were put after the short and medium long combos. At an average 3x combos (regardless if you click hold or tap, the longest should be the WM-combo as the 5th click, the average a WM-combo as 4th click)
• Length of combos in general: There are combos that are far too long, shield has a 7x , dualwield even 10x - how much is that used at all??? I suggest a revamp of some weapon combos in general and a maximum combolength of 5x, including WM-combos

You might be wondering why and the answer is simple: Combatspeed and making it usable through all the stuns and counters.

I am not that good at number-crunching, but with the way stuns come regulary it would be extremely difficult to pull of haymaker->homerun - the big question is what you'd adjust: The combos, or the stuns?

Really love the idea of the weapon mastery! It helps out with the conflict of using only 1 weapon tree combos at a time. Definitely adds a bit more super powered realism (in terms of fighting styles like several of the DC characters mentioned) to the game.

I was sad to find out the Weapon Mastery is only free to Premium and free accounts have to buy the DLC. It was a nice surprise to get 1 free armory during the Armory DLC update but doesn't seem like that is the case for Weapon Mastery. ):

I copy/pasted that wrong. The jump leads to a grenade registering that I take to VP, not a second grenade.

cool, yup, that's it, every powerset with a channeled power can make use of it, heck you could potentially use the iconic ones but they have long reuses. Just because some people haven't realized they could doesn't mean it wasn't very possible.

Doesn't heat vision have a very strong DoT effect? But you can only get it if it hits after a certain number of initial ticks? I was never too clear on that. Because if that was the case jump cancelling is a bit of a moot point with that power.

After re-watching the video again and I hope you reconsider pairing brawlers with two hand combos. I think shields would be a better fit for it. Backfist into that forward kick at the end of shield tap combo and haymaker into two footed slam would seem to flow better with brawler animations.

The might damage isn't a concern though, the point of the power use is simply to reset your situation.

Hit a grenade you're in a 1s animation.

Hit grenade hit a channeled power and jump, you're out of any animation and can do anything you want as you're in your normal situation.

That's what people are using. By doing it as fast as you can you're able to send a grenade out every .1-.2s basically assuming your channel powers are back off cooldown quick enough. (why I had made a joke post on the ice guide a while back suggesting you grab all 4 channel powers and simply rotate them with jump cancels... it'd only take like 4-5 trollers to power as you use like 2k power a second lol)

This is just a question, I don't jump cancel and I don't DPS and I am not an elite player. Is jump cancelling equally beneficial across all the power sets or does it favor some power sets over others? If it is then keep it as is and just add WM along side it. Is it more beneficial to some power sets than others (Rage, HL, are what I have seen referenced in this thread)? Can the same elite player post the same (or very similar) numbers using Earth or Sorcery or Ice with or without jump cancelling as he/she would using Rage/HL with jump canceling? If so then maybe this is just a case of cheaters using macro's ruining things for the non cheaters.

Again you make my point for me in that it is not about skill but rather game mechanics. I never said you couldn't jump cancel with others but those are not on par with HL and Rage and hence why people dont complain about them.

You can try and twist and distort all you want but the put remains true. If its slowing down game, which is abrand new argument you are making, just give 0 dmg from the power or weapon immediately following 0 and viola, speed is the same.

The real issue isnt speed, its that people want the extra dmg from popping the power/weapon right after 0 instead of whatever extra time the devs add in. Again, not a skill issue at all.

You may not like the change, which is fine, just don't cloak the reason behind why you dont like it as a skill or now a speed issue.

I realize Spytle that the greater goal is to achieve balance, I don't necessarily agree with your sentiment that we are using clipping just as a tool to top the scoreboards and to define a player's accomplishments because it's not. There is a small minority that will view it as such but in all actuality in regards to the scoreboard and dpsing it is just a tool to measure progression. Even ultra competitive players such as myself don't view it as a scoreboard chase, it is about measurement. If you are playing against a dps continually in similar raid environments like nexus or paradox at the end when the scoreboard pops it tells you looking at it from a player who "clips the hell out of things" is to establish a benchmark for the amount of damage that you can do in that given time frame and raid circumstances, after that benchmark has been set the scoreboard shows 1: Did I reach that benchmark or surpass it? 2: Did the player behind me close or did I lengthen the gap? When you answer those 2 questions you can look back on the raid and see if there were situations where your rotations failed or if you didn't maximize aoe situations etc. That is what is going through the minds of players unless they are just the immature type and bragging in chat or saying the other dps got beasted! etc.

The pass on combat balance only serves to make the new mechanic of Weapon Mastery more appealing because in all truth if Weapon Mastery was introduced tomorrow to live servers the best way to deal the maximum amount of damage would be to use rotations that didn't involve Weapon Mastery because the rotations would be too slow. Even the rotations you showed on the livestream (yes I know they aren't finished yet) would be dwarfed by 1000's and 1000's of damage from a powered rotation by a gadgets dps or rage etc. The only way to make Weapon Mastery more viable if you truely think the "motivation" of all dps is just to chase the scoreboard is to change/nerf the way it is accomplished now to bring it down to the level of Weapon Mastery. Now don't get me wrong I don't have any issue with the actual mechanic of Weapon Mastery, the concept of it is sound and it seems like a step of natural progression within the confines of game. I realize that certain combat changes would need to be implemented in order for Weapon Mastery to perform correctly and fluidly such as changing the hold ranges of weapon attacks and possible animation lengths. However I do not see where current jump cancelling mechanics would need to be looked at in the way you described on the livestream where you would require a set animation length effectively killing what players are doing with powers such as fear gas, plasma retch, fan, some finishers etc. That seems like its more an attack on the skill progression and skill gap of dps players. From what I saw of the Weapon Mastery mechanics on the livestream they will not be difficult to execute by any players, and this isn't me talking from some elitist point of view I just honestly can't see a situation where players would have difficulty with it. The only issue with Weapon Mastery players will have is executing it in raid and instances with npc's using combat mechanics.

You also make references about the health and expansion of the game, while I do agree what Weapon Mastery adds to this, nothing else that DCUO is currently doing Im sorry to say backs that statement up. I mean that with my deepest respect to you but when you look at the overall picture of DCUO currently we have players doing Assault and Battery in Atlantean Monarch and gear from the bounties in Gotham Wastelands skipping the Origin Crisis content almost completely which both raids even in their severely nerfed state still present more of a challenge than Assault and Battery. The gear on the Vestment of Rage gear and Scion gear are so much farther ahead in base stats than any of the previous tiers that all content tier 1-5 is obsolete. Groups can solo T4 raids can complete T5 raids without healers because of the gear basically. I know you don't want to make raids catered to the minority again like Origin Crisis and that you all took alot of flack from the community from having a raid that the majority of the community couldn't complete but the changes made to the game since then doesn't really seem like its aiding the health and expansion of the game. Assault & Battery was completed in 20min the first night and im sure the majority of the groups completed it as well maybe not in that time but certainly within a reasonable allotted time frame. Also in regards to raid and the health and expansion DCUO implements npc combat mechanics to increase the difficulty of the encounters without having the need to actually increase the raid difficulty but there hasn't been any mentions of using other pvp mechanics like having npc's debuff the various roles. Having npc's debuff just like players would in pvp instances in pve where they would have to heal with reduced resto, provide power with reduced vit and tanks being stripped of their shields adds a WHOLE new level of difficulty and strategy but there hasn't been so much as a whisper about changes like that etc.

Also on the subject of health and expansion this weapon mastery mechanic seems to be completely tailored to one role and that is DPS. Unless your end goal is to further adjust content difficulty with your future raids that a healer could complete a 3-4 second weapon mastery range combo without throwing a single heal in between or if a tank could complete Weapon Mastery combos without the need to block any incoming damage etc then I fail to see how this will help the "majority" of the roles this game has. I understand it has been a thought for a very long time to adjust in some way the controller role so that they aren't viewed as batteries for us "hell clipping dps" and while I feel that controller's shouldn't view themselves as that I understand their point of view. I know what im about to say has no basis of fact or quotes to back me up it is just a personal hypothesis that instead of making controllers or dps able to power themselves with power intensive rotations it will be the latter where instant power may be changed where its not needed to be spammed and to move away from power intensive rotations and the need for them, which sounds a lot like Weapon Mastery where dps will need to use a fraction of the power because the majority of the damage comes from the weapon combos and you add a near 100% crit chance on the end for powers and while the dps were in this rotation the controllers wouldn't have to be spamming instant power etc.

I don't think the motivation of DCUO should be to worry about players who can't top the scoreboard charts. If DCUO's true intention is to revolve around powers and players scoreboard chasing then just have all future content 1 big room where we just face waves and waves of npc's like the PvE FNL challenges. Don't have raid situations like Fos2 or Assault and Battery where groups are encouraged to separate because all that does is impact the scoreboard "chase". Don't create raids like Prime Battleground or Paradox anymore because those are just single target intensive raids where aoe powersets can fall behind because their bread and butter powers split between targets poorly etc. There are countless factors that I could carry about about to the development team that would impact a scoreboard "chase" besides how fast someone is clipping. At the same time DCUO would have to do away with powersets overwriting each other how fair can it be for someone who wants to scoreboard chase that his dots and power interactions are stolen by another dps of the same powerset in the raid? I am sorry if this is coming off as harsh Spytle, I truly do have the utmost respect for you and how you interact with the community but there are alot of things that are apart of the picture when you make references to why DCUO is doing a overhaul to make all powersets viable etc besides "clipping" What clipping and jump cancelling did was to establish a skill gap and progression. It gave something for players to strive for. Not all players could just pick up a powerset and be able to clip like us they spent tons of time in the sparring room working on practicing clipping with powers like hardlight etc. Now I know you could saw well they can do that with weapon mastery but in all honestly, no they wont. It will be a matter of finding which WM combo does the most damage which is already spin chop>dual flurry and try to get that off without npc counters.

In the end Spytle if DCUO's vision is to make all dpsers be able to scoreboard chase at the same effectiveness then so be it, while I think that is a truely foolish endevour because that is saying that if you are a dps your only goal is to top the scoreboard. That vision in layman terms is basically healers = have no one die, tanks = don't let anything attack anyone else, controllers = ??? blue bar healers/whatever new DCUO direction is for role and then its DPS = top scoreboard. I don't see it like that and if you say im just misinterpreting you than I do apologize. If some dps wanted to only go for the scoreboard having clipping for all purposes stay the way it is, if dps just want to help the group progress through content then introduce weapon mastery and have clipping remain the same. Thanks for taking the time to read my response Spytle, I know you only respond to topics that you feel passionately about which is evident here but I am of the same type and will continue to resist the side effect changes outlined with DLC 10.

-Sincerely
ObsidianChill the Community Viewed Elitist

...

Yes, people want the skill element of speed to matter. If you think speed isn't an element of speed... i don't know what to say.

No...Jump canceling COULD be equally beneficial across all the power sets IF all powers have a good enough power to jump cancel. But no, the Devs never wanted to make the powers equally balanced because they buffed the Gadgets Fear Gas which is a jump clip power, but they didn't give ANY Mental power to jump cancel on Mental / Gadgets revamp.

So, yes... There's no balancing between the powers, but the jump cancel isn't the villain because this gives a lot of fun but are the devs which didn't make this mechanic usable for all powersets.

In case of macro users, yes... They will use this to get a perfect time because are too much competitive players.
PS: With or without the jump cancel, a macro user will still using this if the player wants to still clipping the Weapon Mastery perfectly and always in the minimum time.

Does this mean i can play the same way i played "before"? Including using my own weapon of choice, like "Pure" Brawling, without adding combos from the other weapons?

As a hardlight user im not that fond of this, I'm not even on PC but I'm on PS4 and can jump cancel fine. Most people who are hardlight clip, mainly because fan is too slow or whiptrash. Clipping just makes faster so less chance of getting killed and more dmg. Weapon combos don't take much skill, I've used them all and played this game from the start. Most people use the same combo or spam because the other ones just plainly suck or are too melee based for harder bosses that will KO you if too close. Plus I don't really want to use two weapons, there isn't many combos I do like to be honest. I'm sure I could use them but then if Weapon mastery does more dmg than clippling, people will be forced to use that and if certain weapon combinations are better then people will also be forced to use that too, so it doesn't really add much. Honestly I don't care if you guys add this, I've played this game years but you guys need us more than we need you, I can just play final fantasy or another MMO if you screw this up, doesn't bother me and plus it'll save me some money too with all this games microtransactions for everything. I'm not being passive aggressive with that by the way lol. I'm honestly not bothered. I'll wait for this to come out and if it's a mess, which I think it will be then I'm gone.