Woah, Woah, Woah... Why?

That is not my argument, my argument is you need to time your cleanse and shields, you just can't cycle them one after the other anymore and avoid all damage. Everyone has to play smarter now because at any second you could be debuffed by any other role. Too many players are used to depending solely on their role vs their counter role, now that everyone is equally as potentially dangerous it forces everyone to change up their strategies and plan for the worst.

No Controller uses the damage debuff now as it is. Block does the same thing and it cost no power. If you can't see how easy it is to beat a DPS then nothing anyone says is going to help you.

This is exactly my point. A healer would be getting debuffed by controllers. Now, a healer (and everybody) can be debuffed by everybody. This seems unrealistic to me. Even in the actual DC comics, it is known certain characters had advantages over others. Superman, for example, could almost never beat Metallo by himself because of his kryptonite heart. Although Batman could easily reach in and remove the Kryptonite, or get close enough to neutralize it, Superman couldn't do it. The same used to apply to PvP. Although a healer's healing in PvP may be annoying you, you just aren't the right player to do something about that. I feel as though this concept of allowing weaknesses to be present has been abolished.

As for the numbers thing, the only reason I even brought it up was because it is an undeniable fact that the majority of spoken opinions were against this, and it was still done (which is what truly upsets me most).

BTW Giggles, on a side note, I will give you credit and respect for sticking by your case through 29 pages of controversy while maintaining a conversation that is professional and constructive. Not common in these forums.

We will never know exactly how many were against these changes exactly. I am however sure if PvP suffers, the devs will make changes accordingly.

As far as the weaknesses, they are still here. Think of the movement debuffs as ways of overcoming the odds (confidence and real role debuffs). Example, I am a Controller (Metallo) and you are a Healer (Superman), Batman (Tank) is not around today because he is out looking for the Joker (DPS) in Gotham. Now you are on your own against me and my huge kryptonite chunk. Well consider the movement debuffs a lead suit which protects you from my kryptonite and gives you a fighting chance against me despite the odds not being in your favor.

That is exactly what these debuffs are. They do not nullify any one role, they simply give everyone an equal opportunity to overcome the same odds. Healers still heal for the same amount now as they did before the update, the only thing that has changed is now anyone can limit anyone roles ability over the other. This update really only effected 1v1 and 2v2 because in anything higher than that, your group will still be there to support you as they always have.

P.S.

Thanks, I agree it's nice having a productive discussion.

No player worth his salt in PVP ever did just cycle through shields. Do you think Tanks had infinite power? Everyone knew b4 how to beat a tank was to wait till they were out of power and than unload.
Blocking is not the same. It's not about how easy it is to beat someone, I thought it was about leveling the playing field.

Not correct at all, at least from a Fire Tank standpoint. Unless we had Cleanse loaded or our Trinket was ready, our ability to heal ourselves and Cleanse the team was kaput for the full 12 seconds (not sure of the hp increase, never checked it). But once a Healer used a Power on us again, bam!, we were re-debuffed.

As we discuss this it seems we will have to leave this in a "agree to disagree" stance, which is cool. If the devs/mods ever do go through and take count of who is against/for this change, strike me down for against.

It's like I said, for me it seems like it changing far too much too quickly, and I do not enjoy it in the slightest, whether in concept or in practice (yes, despite not doing PvP often, I have tried it a few times since this update).

It is though, when you look at what the support roles can do with their power, compared to what a DPS can do, the DPS' disadvantage is staggering. The only way a DPS can win is if the player is not good at protecting themselves with counters and blocks. Just because a DPS can spike you does not mean they are guaranteed a win. If I were to try and spike a player and that player successfully counter me, I just wasted a good amount of my power and you are still standing, if I fail again at spiking you then I am just a player with no advantages because I cannot boost my damage anymore, or I risk not being able to breakout when I need to. PvP is all about timing.

That is how it is for us Controllers too. Tanks cast one power, we lose our shields and our PoT is cut in half. We could cleanse but right after that bam another debuff. At least Tanks can heal, absorb damage, etc. Controllers only get back power, and when shields are useless that means we have no mitigation. Now everyone is kind of feeling what it is like, if that makes sense.

Yes you still keep the extra toughness from just being in Tank role, you just lose the buff given to you from extra powers. I know I have been using my Hero Tank most the weekend just testing, and I had no issues. My Tank is Earth by the way.

That comment in RED can be said about any role. The only difference is a DPS has the potential to do much more damage when or if they land the attack. If a DPS can take away all my benefits from being a tank, than I should be able to take away his benefits from being a DPS.

Fair enough.

If you ever play on USPC villain side send me a tell, and come PvP with me, I will show you it is not so bad.

Isn't the potential to do much more damage and the potential of a player who is capable of defending against the spike the same thing? It all matters solely on that players skill. Which is why I feel this is such a great update it puts skill before roles/power sets. You still have to have the know how and timing of when to block, when to counter, when to spike. It is all situational and based on skill.

No you lose the extra toughness from being in role, at least for Ice. Your point about controllers, is the reason why most good PVP trolls are "masters" of jumping around and hiding. That said, the "good" PVP tanks or heals were expected to do things like capturing nodes. When a tank is constantly debuffed, he loses ALL benefits from tanking and cannot withstand an attack for any reasonable amount of time.

The potential to defend against a strike does not kill anyone, lol. In a lot of matches that is the objective. My point the potential to defend against a spike is now severely reduced by all, while there is no "new" way to limit the damage from the strike.

One honest question, I say this as a Tank myself when au am in my Hero.

Do you really think it was fair that one Tank could hold a node against 2 or more players just because of the role they picked at character creation?

I for one am glad that is no longer a possibility, it was a cheap tactic and now it is only possible if you posses the skill to do it. If Healers and Controllers, all of whom have less toughness than Tanks are able to survive a spike in 5v5 with an entire team on them, I think you as a Tank can as well, it is just something you are going to have to learn.

How is the potential to survive the spike reduced by all when all the same debuffs existed before GU28? There was no way to limit a DPS damage prior to this update (outside of Controller debuffs, which no Controller uses) either, except by blocking and countering them. Nothing has changed. As fas as survivng a spike not killing anyone, I beliebe this is about 1v1 and 2v2 as group PvP is basically the same. If a DoS runs out of power they are useless in 1v1 and 2v2. The only thing that has changed is the amount of skill required to overcome these obstacles.

In Tank role Fire tanks get a ton of extra HP (from increased Dom) for 12 seconds after firing off a Power (we also get self-heals that are useful but nothing compared to a Healer). When debuffed by Healers we completely lose the ability to self-heal (outside of a Soder). I have no idea about extra mitigation nor if our extra HP is effected.

What's the detriment to Earth when a Healer debuffs you? (I've never played Earth, so other than "have Brick up!" I have no knowledge of the powerset)

Honestly, yes I do, because that was part of a Tank's duties. And not every Tank could do that, and their were players capable of preventing it. And it's not about surviving a spike I got that. My point is a debuffed Tank is now just as squishy as a DPS, with no extra damage abilities. So besides using cleansing powers, which both have a considerably long cooldown, to assist the team, there is little to no value playing in Tank role. However there is NO WAY for a Tank to debuff a DPS; and that my friend I do not consider fair.

We lose all our damage absorption and our shields can be strip easily as well. The pets are easy to kill, in my opinion kind of useless in PvP. Then again I'm used to playing with hardly any mitigation so that is just me.

Having played 1v1 against Earth Tanks I've found that Brick absorbs a good bit of damage from me. I've gone so far as to purposely take Brick out just to get a few decent whacks at you guys before you can respawn him. It's not nearly as annoying as an Ice Tank cycling shields though lol!