Woah, Woah, Woah... Why?

Remember when pvp was fun? yeah that was great.

PvP is fun and great and always has been. Otherwise PvP would not be around today. If you do not like PvP now you can always go scrimmage and play with rules everyone agrees on. The rest of us who can adapt, embrace change, like flavor in their PvP and not the same cookie cutter team make ups and have no problem rolling with the punches, will continue to enjoy PvP.

I really hope the devs push this out and do not listen to the minority of players on these forums who dislike this update. This update will make life better for those who pug. Those of you who say "what about competitive PvP?!", that is what scrimmage is for and IF you tested it properly you would know it does not effect "competitive" PvP. A proper premade still has a huge advantage.

PvP is not dying, what is dying is "competitive" PvP, but only because people have gotten extremely lazy and do not like working for their rewards. So some people who do not want to put in the time create these rules so that they are not at the mercy of those of us who have put in the time and effort. You want to know why there are so few PvP leagues who "Compete" on USPC? Its because those of us who have put in the time want to use the rewards we earned and you do not like that. However if the shoe were on the other foot I am sure you would not mind any of it. PvP gear is so easy to earn it is disgusting. They give those of you who are lazy a inch and you try to take a mile. Instead of earning your rewards, you just want everything handed to you guys.

This is after all an MMO and it is not like HT, Gear, Weapons, etc is random. It is all available with a tiny sliver of effort and available to everyone at all times. You ever hear the phrase "You reap what you sow"? That is how this game works, along with every other MMO on the market, and this one is far easier than most.

you can't fix your mail boxes how is breaking PvP more going to help anyone?

Right. Because game developers delete whole sections of content. You and your upvote mule should just stop, nobody here takes your post seriously at this point.

Game developers are keeping PvP fresh. I know I haven't stopped PvPing yet because I still find it fun. When the game stops becoming fun maybe it's time to move on. To date there has only been one addition that I never cared for and that is being adjusted in GU28, that is immunities of course. Everything else is just icing on the cake. It sounds like you and many others aren't having fun, take a break or something.

Then as far as my "up vote mule" goes, every person who has ever given me another up vote is another real player. I'm sorry if you are jealous that you yourself cannot get many people to like your posts. Try posting something constructive instead of simply trying to insult people, and failing miserably at that too.

I find it horribly sad that despite such an incredibly long thread, the majority of which consisted of players albeit begging not to implement this, the update still pushed forward. Yes, there were a select few in this thread who fought their cases adamantly, but that does not begin to account for the innumerable amount of people who asked this not to happen.

On top of that, we have successfully turned the entire game into one giant tutorial for PvP. Our characters now have these massive symbols above our heads telling our opponents exactly what to do to counter us. I can see these symbols showing up from level 1-10, or even until level 30, but to have this implemented into the entire game is unnecessary by all means. You have successfully taken people like me, who to be honest is not that good at PvP, and made it so that I can hold my ground against players who have always destroyed me in PvP. Why? Because I can just debuff them, regardless of role, and I can watch their symbols and act accordingly. I no longer need to pay attention to what they're doing, or try and focus on their combo rotation to work up a strategy.

This entire update upset me and a lot of other players greatly, and I know I'm not the only person who is praying for GU29 to come and undo the atrocity that was GU28.

I suppose now it's time for Giggles to reply to me and tell me how foolish I am. /sigh

Not at all, everyone is entitled to their opinions. Just remember that this forum community is a fraction of the overall community.

Also, with PvP popping as much as it is I highly doubt this is going to be undone. I personally have no issues with everyone debuffing me as I was always debuffed before GU28, and I definitely have no issues with showing newer players when they can counter and interrupt me in my clips. Why? These symbols just don't make players better lol. They simple help players to understand what is going on. The players still have to learn how to react and how to clip themselves. Even though I do clip, I have always been against clipping. That discussion however, is for another time.

This update helped PvP immensely and spiced it up, that is my opinion. My honest advice, just looking at how many updates have ever been reverted, I'd start getting used to all of this or maybe this is no longer the game for you. Soon you yourself can turn off the symbols, that's what is coming in the next GU I believe. Why would anyone turn it off though? You might pick up on a new clip you have never seen before, you know the saying "you learn something new everyday"? This could help to accomplish that for many players.

Don't get me wrong. I am by no means against people learning how to play the game. I am only against the fact that these symbols continue to appear after level 30. I honestly believe they would be fantastic to have up until level 30, because by then you should have PvP pretty down from the arenas/legends.

Like I said, I'm pretty bad at PvP. Mostly because I don't like to do it. I did intend to eventually get into it though, so I would often make it a point to pay attention to what combos worked best or what weapons so I would be able to prepare myself if I ever faced that weapon/power combo. PvP should be about having to quickly adapt and adjust to your new enemy, but now it's about simply watching what symbol appears over their head and using the move that will interrupt/BB/block that symbol.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the game isn't for me. I'm definitely saying that I won't be doing PvP now that this has come out. I'll do legends still, but mostly only because I love destroying people as Harley and watching them freak out as their $10 character gets stomped by a starter Legend. Also, you make a good point about this only being a portion of the community. Two facts to combat that:

1. Their FB page also received a lot of hate about this update
2. Statistically, a small portion randomly selected from a larger group will almost always reflect the same results of polling the entire large group. It is called sampling, and is used VERY frequently in surveys, statistics, polls, reports, averages, etc.

I disagree that this update helped or spiced up PvP. I think it definitely changed it, but I don't think it was changed for the better. Certain roles are meant to be effective/weak against others and that is what the entire role system has been based around since.... well since nearly forever. To make such a significant change despite the extremely heavy protests is what sincerely bothers me. I mean no disrespect towards you, but you're one of the few I have seen that was for this idea. Yes, there were others - several others honestly - but your numbers still did not come close to the numbers that were against this. Were it not for the fact that I absolutely do not want to, I could go through the forum and count and, based on what I have only seen thus far, I would like to assume it would be about 70% against 30% for (again, this is speaking roughly just based on this and other threads I have read).

Most people do not even understand a fraction of the combat mechanics by the time they hit 30. Most of us did not learn everything we know now in 3 days. That was the amount of time it took me to hit 30 the first time I ever played.

Those symbols need to stay they are vital to PvPs future. I'm not sure how long you have played for, but back in beta one of the biggest complaints was clipping. When the game launched, many players quit because the devs never fixed clipping. This I feel is a good compromise. If anyone really wanted health competition, this update was it. It balanced 1v1 and 2v2 while leaving group PvP 4v4 and higher the same. If I was a new player and went up against a master clipper, I would get slaughtered and most likely never come back. How can you expect a new player to react to something they cannot see? Sure we had to learn that way, but that does not mean just because we had it rough others should have it rough too.

I have played all roles since this update hit and I honestly have to tell you I do not feel more powerful in anyone role than I do the other. Just because a vocal minority hates this new update does not mean it is a bad update, it simply proves that "you can't please everyone". Everyone can say "RPS before GU28 was great" and "RPS took skill before GU28" but how can anyone really say that? You were practically given a win just because of the roles,you picked. How is that skillful or even fun? I am happy a Healer can debuff me, I am happy a DPS can debuff me, it keeps me on my toes and ensures I always have to pay attention. It makes everyone a threat and removes that comfort zone everyone had when facing their counter roles before we were all given these new debuffs, since now everyone can counter.

Remember GU13? Everyone hated immunity, in fact more so than these changes and yet they stayed. I hated immunity, but not because of what it did, because it gave me such a huge advantage. It is part of MMO evolution. I feel this game is more about skill now than it ever was due to the fact all roles can now be debuffed by any role. Also remember the real role debuffs are far superior to those movement debuffs, and we also still get the confidence boosts, so RPS is far from dead it is just better balanced now.

Although it means you may have to pay attention, simply paying attention does not work for all roles by any means. Let's take a healer for example. If you're going 1V1 or even 2V2 and you're playing a healer, you're done. You have significantly reduced damage output because you're in healer stance, and you can't even heal yourself because that was taken away from you by the DPS across from you. There are some times you will not be able to account for anything with pure skill. That's like saying a level 4 fresh off the ship should be able to beat a T4 PVP guy if they're skilled enough. Some things cannot happen.

I'm not saying an MMO shouldn't change and evolve. By all means, do it. I only ask that, if you're going to change the ONLY thing I do when I'm not working, at least listen to and respect the players' opinions. With absolutely no offense to you whatsoever, if I was on your side of this and it DIDN'T go live, I wouldn't even be upset. Why? Because I was in the minority that wanted it, and the majority of the playerbase should have a higher say. I would be disappointed, but not nearly as much.

You indicated that a vocal minority hated the new update, but Giggles, you must admit that you have had a LOT of people in this thread alone were against it. I think the fact that I saw countless complaints about this and it still went live upsets me more than the actual update, to be honest. Don't get me wrong, I hate the update.

For the record, I still hate immunity.

I disagree only because before GU28 remember all those threads where Controllers were complaining about Healers? Healers were doing fine then. Playing a Healer has always been about outlasting your opponents, not spiking them dead in 1v1. A healer must tactically time their heals, wait for windows when they could cleanse or serum and burst heal themselves. In 2v2 the Healers job was and still is to heal.

I also want to say a Healers precision is not that bad when one sockets all red and yellow sockets with prec resto. You are basically a glorified DPS with great heals at that point. Nothing has really changed, except that now no one role is superior to another, instead each role has a slight advantage over their counter (confidence and 12 second debuff that is activated by using any power rather than a specified movement power).

With all due respect, you can't gauge the minority or majority in a forum. The forums by default are a fraction of the player base. You know why most people do not bother to use the forums? They are happily enjoying the game. This update significantly altered immunity as well. That is also another reason Healers are dying faster now. It is not full immunity for 2-3 seconds it is now a flat 20% of your current HP. So the closer you are to death, the less immunity benefits a Healer.

When I argued in those Controller vs Healer threads, I was never in there because I could not kill a Healer. I was in there because of the discrepancy in the time it took to win between each of the roles in a fight. Tank vs Controller being the fastest where Controller vs Healer was the longest. Now in any fight regardless of role they are pretty even in length provided the person can match my skill and gear. I was watching my wife PvP on her healer this weekend, and she was doing fine in healer role. She gave up on PvP a long time ago because of the imbalances, but for the first time in a long while she is actually enjoying it.

I think that is what the devs were trying to achieve. They wanted to balance out RPS better and add those symbols to help grow the PvP community. This update was not meant for those of us who are serious PvPers who are constantly in perfect premades. This update was meant for the people who pug against the perfect premades. Lets be real here, even with this update 9/10 times the perfect premade is still going to win regardless. This update mostly benefits the pugs, while also giving us vets some new tools to incorporate into our PvP strategies and making it so regardless of role, all of us have a fighting chance now.

While I do agree that there are ways to adapt to the new update, however I still feel the new update concerning the movement mode debuffs is unfair.
A Healer can now be debuffed by anyone. A debuffed healer effectively becomes a lousy DPS.
A Tank can now be debuffed by anyone. A debuffed tank becomes a lousy DPS.
You can say to mod Prec/role stats, and use Home Turf mods all that you want to, but that doesn't give Tanks or Healers a damage modifier.
O than you state just use counters.... well guess what anybody can counter anybody, so how does that give an advantage to a support role?
The only real way to even this out is to make a DPS debuff available in the movement powers. Have this debuff remove 50% might/prec and remove damage modifiers. This would even it out.

Actually, this is mathematically proven to be incorrect. Like I said before, it is a statistical process known as sampling and, considering the players who wished to join the forum did so on a voluntary basis, it most definitely applies. 30 people out of 100 is the same proportionally as 30,000 out of 100,000.

I'm not naive by any means. I honestly see the good intentions of this update. If you have the "perfect premade" as you call it, a standard group will almost never stand a chance. If you have a league that has learned to work perfectly together and compliment each other, it will be difficult to beat them, post or pre update. I agree 100%. Their intent was clearly to balance everything out and make it an even playing field for new players, veterans, and all roles.

That is the problem many have. One of the biggest problems with this update that myself and many others have been arguing since it went live is that it should not be an even playing field. Even in the core of our role descriptions from the beginning we were told who we are strong against and who we are weak against. This is what PvP was at its core. I know this argument gets made a lot but that is what PvP always was, and although MMOs are meant to evolve, they should never change their entire foundation, especially in one update.

It's quite simple actually how blocking benefits the real roles against a DPS. Let me break it down for you...

When debuffed a Tank still has extra health and toughness in the Tank role, can cleanse their team and can fully debuff a Controller for 12 seconds with any power in their power set. Equip the Core Strength mod and you are equal damage to a Controller, and lose your damage penalty.

When debuffed a Controller still gives out 50% PoT and can cleanse a Tank of their debuffs and fully debuff a Healer for 12 seconds with any power in their power set.

When debuffed a Healer can still heal out for 50% to the team and if debuffed by a Controller 25% to themselves and can still debuff a Tank for a full 12 seconds with any power in their power set. Equip Core Strength and you are equal damage to a Controller, and lose your damage penalty.

Those are some pretty nice advantages... Now lets look at DPS.

A DPS cannot be debuffed, except by a Controller (the damage debuff we Controllers have is useless and a waste of a power). They have significantly reduced heals if they are a healing power set, and significantly reduced shields if they are a Tank or Controller power set. The only advantage they have is damage where they MUST cast a power before they get the modifier, since they lack a PoT power is very limited. If they clip too quickly they are out of power. If they are countered they wasted a chunk of power and got no benefit from it. All they havens that modifier. If you are good enough to survive their 2-3 spikes, they are a free kill. They must also use specific powers which take away from their overall DPS to debuff anyone of the real roles.

The main reason you Healers are feeling it now, is immunity is not what it used to be. It is 20% of your current HP. So the closer you are to death, the less it helps bleep you alive. My wife was doing great on her Healer this weekend, she is abut average at PvP, if she can do it so can you.

Those 30 people against it however do not speak for the other 60 who are not commenting. That is why the sampling does not matter. The devs have the hard numbers where all we can do is guess. Regardless of the numbers, the devs know they will not please everyone and even though not everyone agrees with the devs, it's evident that the decisions they are making are the correct ones.

If the game was doing badly they would not have been allowed a port to the PS4. So they are definitely doing things right if a 3 year old game is being ported to that system. Mepps has said before that PvP has not declined despite any of the changes they made to it.

With all due respect, think you are missing the point of this update. Yes part of it was to aid new players, but the other part was not to remove RPS but to better balance it. It is still not even between the all the roles. I as a Controller still have a 12 second debuff against a Healer and I still get my confidence boost, while all they can do is a equip a non healing power to debuff me. The same works for each other role in the game against their counters.

All they did was not make RPS an auto win like it once was, and now made it more about who is the better player regardless of the role or power set they chose. The core of PvP is still there, it was just altered a tiny bit for better balance. When the game launched the devs said they wanted to make all roles viable and not make people feel they needed to be certain roles to excel, well in my opinion they accomplished that in PvP with this update.

PS

It's nice to have a discussion without the flaming etc.

Post above this one I was on my phone sorry for the typos at the end.

Nope not correct. A debuffed tank loses the health/defense buff and shielding buffs associated with the role. And BTW Tank gear has the SAME amount of Health as DPS gear. Yes Tank gear has more toughness, but I think the common perception to is to over emphasize the amount of damage that toughness truly mitigates. I can't remember the exact numbers, but they are available on the forums.
Than you sympathy with the DPS is astonishing. Every role has to use power to gain any effect or benefit, not just DPS's. Every role can also be countered. The difference is though that support roles can have there powers made useless by defuffs. How do Tanks survive those "2 or 3 strikes", use shields, how do Healers survive them, by throwing a heal. When shields are made ineffective and heals are severely limited and there is no way to debuff the damage output of a DPS, than that is what I consider and extremely unfair advantage.

The thing is, RPS was not always an auto-win. I can honestly say that I have seen a LOT of players beat their off-roles. Like I said, I never got much into PvP. To a lot of people, that statement alone makes my argument null and void, and perhaps they're right. I did PVP from time to time, but I loved to sit and just watch the duels in the HoD/WT so I could learn more about PvP. It got to the point in watching these duels that I very rarely would say "Oh, this guy's X role, this other guy doesn't stand a chance."

As for the 60 people who were not commenting, that is the entire premise behind sampling: it takes a statistical sample of the general population to attempt to account for the fact that a lot of people may not wish to voice their opinion. If their opinions were that important to them, they would have voiced it. I'm sorry to say that this part of the argument holds no water in this discussion. That would be like 1,000 people stepping up after Obama won and saying "But wait! I didn't vote! Now I want my voice heard!" Tough cookies, girl scout.

I do not believe the RPS system was better balanced, to be honest. Yes, I fully understand that the movement mode debuffs don't quite do as much as the debuffs from the actual powerset. I can see and understand that. I also understand that, since they chose to put the debuffs on the movement modes, it means players wil have to give up a potentially greater ability to use it. I see all of that, and using the movement mode to do this was probably making the best out of a poor decision. I don't think it better balanced the system, because it did indeed change a lot about how PvP is handled. If I'm a healer, and suddenly my healing is cut dramatically because I'm fighting my off-role, I shouldn't be able to say "Oh, ok, then I'll just debuff you, too!" No, I should crap myself a little, cross my fingers, and apply as much skill as possible.

The same way Controllers survived it all these years, get better at countering. You think Controllers ever had it easy? How do you think Controllers managed with near useless shields and limited heals before? You Tanks can still recast your buffs right away, just as you could before vs a Healer. The problem you and others are having is now you are feeling what it is like to have an uphill battle every fight where many of us have been playing this way for years and it is just another day at the office for those of us who stuck it out. Regardless the Dom and toughness bonuses in Tank gear are a huge help, you tanks who chose your DPS gear over Tank Gear and used the Tank role are feeling it now though.

You can already counter a DPS by out playing them and running them out of power. If you can't do that then there is nothing that will save you against them.

The only advantage from Dom is shielding which can be debuffed. Your only counter to my post is because trolls suffered so should tanks now. Is that really called "balancing" things out? Those in favor of this update just like it because they couldn't beat Tanks or Healers before, they failed to adjust in the past. Or they just enjoy enjoy seeing a community suffer.
Like I mentioned several times now, to make this as even as possible lets make DPS debuffs available to all. Let the debuffs remove 50% might/prec and remove damage modifiers. Why would people be so against a debuff, but cry out so this update made things fair. It sounds to me many posters believe fair is an eye for eye. Oh you used to be beast, so now you must suffer. Gimme a break! If you really wanted things to be fair you would support a DPS debuff that is inline with the debuffs the other roles have.

I agree the numbers argument means nothing.

As as the last part though, a healers healing is no different now than it was before. The main difference is now everyone has a way of hindering it a bit. If you time your cleanses, counters, and heals right it should not be a problem. If you we're a Healer prior to this update you were getting debuffed by Controllers. You should already know what it is like to fight debuffed. The main difference now is Tanks and DPS can now also debuff you. I can understand everyone getting upset if these debuffed stacked, but they don't. They are just shorter versions of the original.

A debuffed Healer is not a useless Healer, it just means that Healer must now get better at timing when to use the cleanse and when to burst heal because chances are that debuff is going right back n a second or 2 after it is removed. Fact is nobody lost anything in this update, everyone's stats are the same debuffed now as they were prior to game update 28. The main difference is now everyone has access to the same tools and the advantage between the counter roles is smaller, but still present.