Why Going Legendary Is Becoming An EPIC FAIL....

no; legendary players (veteran or otherwise) get enough, at least according to the majority of folks in this thread. if legendary players truly don't feel SOE and DCUO are doing right by them, they need to stop paying for sub-par service. it's like going to a restaurant, complaining about the food, but finishing your meal, leaving a tip (the minimum, but a tip nonetheless) and returning next week for the same exact ting. unless you're following your words with action--i.e. letting your money walk--no one is gonna take you seriously. a business certainly won't...

You are completely missing the point and didn't answer my questions...

I need hard data or it is all just your assumptions... do you have the revenue that these games make vs DCUO?

Do you have how often they update their games and create DLC.

I'm not saying F2P is bad..and there aren't successful games in it (I'm creating comparisons).. but you are saying DCUO can do what they do AND create DLC every 3 months.. AND create Game Updates every month to a month and a half...

That is not the case.. you are ASSUMING that if they start doing micro transactions that will save them from "going down".. and I'm still waiting to see a link to this information that DCUO is "going down" because you don't agree with paying monthly for their service.

You have examples of successful F2Ps.. now I am sure we can list successful Subscription games too.. WOW comes to mind...
http://mmoattack.com/mmo-articles/top-10-best-mmorpg-for-2013

Here is a list of games that though DCUO didn't make the list... There are games that have subscriptions.

Your argument is that because DCUO charges a sub.. they are doomed to fail... which is false.

Long story short and here is my argument and if you cannot answer this, don't bother responding because it will likely have nothing to do with what I asked.

Why is DCUO going under because they charge a subscription?
I need facts here, not your opinion.. I need a link to prove your data.
What is the income of DCUO compared to your F2P games that charge micro-transactions?
How often do F2P games create updates and DLC?
Answer THOSE question.. and maybe you will have some credibility in what you say.

But if you cannot.. then it's only your opinion.. of which that can be debated because you can list successful F2Ps and I can list Successful Sub games....

People keep talking about going microtransaction.

Even though I said in my earlier post that I was one of those rare players willing to give them money (in the marketplace) and wishing for new stuff to buy..

games that are pure microtransaction piss me off, and I for one would stop playing at that point.

my argument IS NOT that they are doomed to fail because they have a sub, my argument is that because of the WAY they have set up their subscription, making it about removing restrictions instead of rewarding the subscribers, that they are harming their player base and that if they removed the cash cap and added more perks for subs instead of making it about removing restrictions, theyd make more money than leaving it as is.

in short: I AM NOT AGAINST THEM HAVING A SUBSCRIPTION i just think it needs to be restructured

It was a list of questions that i'm sure can be answered.. and great for Star Trek.

I simply want proof... I don't know you.. and you don't know me.. I cannot just come in here and throw out numbers without proof of backing up that information from a credible source..

If I told you all the F2P games listed so far are actually doomed to fail... you would want proof.. not just a "because I said it" and "we'll see"...

A lot of the information being thrown around in this thread hs ZERO credibility.. no link posting their source where they got that info are anything of the sort.

So my request is just as simple...
Someone simply feels that legendary access is an "EPIC FAIL'... but all I saw was words and opinion sort of like saying "Sausage Pizza is better than Pepperoni"... All opinion and no facts there. and some people might not even like pizza at all.

Unless someone can prove to me hard data and numbers.. this will go no where. I would need to see DCUO's Financials vs a F2P game's Financials and see them side by side...
And on top of that I would also need to see how often these Free games update and create DLC..

If DCUO is creating DLC every 3 to 4 months and constantly updating the game and going on the 33rd update soon...

Links man.. LINKS... prove your debate to me with hard facts and not your opinion.

THANK YOU!


though I disagree with you... not because it's my opinion.. but I have yet to see proof that it's hurting the player base?

Me being legendary... have zero restrictions... have as much money as I will ever need... can trade at will send mail, receive mail.. I can go on... BUT I got into this game because it was Free to Play.

DCUO really has no restrictions as you level up from 1 to 30.. all content is available to you... except there is the cash cap.. but here is the thing... you really don't even need 1500 in cash when you are lvling up or even if you are T1 or T2... Repairs are cheep and as I got up to T2 I then had to make a choice.

Is this the type of game I want to continue supporting with actual cash?
Do I want to buy DLC or do I want the perks outlined on this vary sight?

I then figured 15$ a month to spend on a hobby to have zero restrictions was for me... others feel that trading for the things they need and paying 10$ every DLC works for them..
Some are so casual that F2P is for them and don't even plan on going up to T3.

The point is why even have legendary access lvl if there are no restrictions for the other lvls?
Why even have a subscription if everyone gets what legendary gets?... Micro transactions are fine.. but unless you can post a side by side comparison of the F2P game's income to DCUO's... you are just assuming that the Micro-Transactions are better.

Don't be ridiculous. Subscription is the only way to go. Paying for the year up front is the best deal possible.

Playing this game is so cheap that doing all this DLC-cost math is silly. Min/Max'ing $15 is a petty waste of time.

i see where you come from but things like the auction house is completely un-used unless by subscribers, at least for the most part. things like repair bills are made needlessly challenging and things like the DLC Home Turf are made barely usable by someone who bought it simply because they don't also pay a monthly fee which would make them not require buying it in the first place.

the money cap isn't something that is doing enough good for the harm it brings, and while i cannot pull out hard facts and numbers, i do know that the game only has a total of 4 servers spanning 3 consoles and the PCUS one honestly isn't all that populated, its not dead like it was but its still not as populated as you'd expect a single server mmo to be.

Also forgot to mention foundry in nwn and sto where players can make maps for other players.

They fired 100 people this summer, kill the SC sale with 250 %, blocked DLC purchased, were delayed on all releases and yesterday made further restrictions on membership.... ?

I am actually not saying people should not sub to DCUO either.

Just came in to bring star trek online up and what happened over in that game was it exploded going actual free2play.

Think of it as SC for marks of triumph.

Anyone can unlock anything just playing MINUS veteran rewards. Concept is time for money. Some people buy their way there others spend time instead.

And actually I never would have thought it could work it's to the point I feel guilty being f2p over there no even kidding.

But again, doesn't mean you can do that with the DCUO mainly because there isn't anything to buy.

From the looks of it things are not going great however

Go look at PWE's other games on their site. Most of their games are F2P models that are still being updated. They also give out veteran rewards every year, that differ from year to year so only the true vets can have certain ones. People who spend more money on the games are rewarded with points on the site that build up to use for little convenience items or fashions.

PWE also has more stable servers than DCUO. Their game Perfect World International, which I've played since 2008, supports 80vs80 Territory Wars. While the game is not as populated as it once was since it's getting dated as any game does after such a long run, it still has many players on it across its many many servers. That was their first game as a F2P company and now they host multiple titles in a F2P system (Neverwinter being one of them) that are bustling with populations and a large staff team for those games.

AeriaGames also has multiple F2P games that are doing decently well. They've just released a new one also that is doing great. My point is that both of these companies have more F2P games to offer, games that have more content than DCUO, more stable servers and all on a F2P model. They also do this with just PC to host on and not a gaming console like PS3/PS4.

If DCUO was a PC only game, it'd be dead by now with SOE's lousy business model. DCUO strives off the fact that PS3/PS4 are lacking in any real decent MMORPGs and not really any F2P ones. The minute that ends, is the minute DCUO takes its spiral plunge.
That's the issue with leaning on a crutch... Once it gets kicked away, you're screwed. Until then, we're fine though.

All I'm saying is that SOE would benefit more from removing DLC packs and let all content be free to anyone. This brings in much more players and lets them actually play enough of the game to get addicted, at which point they will be willing to spend money. Now SOE adds MANY more convenience items to the shop and new types (DCUO has the smallest in-game market I've ever seen in any good MMORPG) to add things for these new spenders to splurge their money on. You can actually still keep a subscription option in this model by beefing up the package deal that Legendary gives you(But not anything that makes it "P2W" then you scare off your new found population), and increase/remove cash caps. People who can afford it will still subscribe, but now you have more players in end-game content and spending money.

This model will increase DCUO's population on both PC and PS side. In-turn with an increase population comes an increase in revenue for SOE. This means a larger staff team and faster, better, less-buggy content. Content lock-outs attached to DLC packs that are needed to progress are NEVER a good thing for an MMORPG's model. I like DCUO, I just wish it had someone who understood how you keep an MMORPG thriving, working on it.

Lolgendary

Where's your list of successful subscription games? WoW is not doing great and has been discussing going F2P for a while now. Not to mention WoW started when there were a relatively low amount of MMORPG choices, that's how it got its huge population. (The people that do still play it are really just ones who are nostalgically attached to the Warcraft series and/or their end-game characters.)

Mary Bliss above also stated reasons above that anyone who actually has been following DCUO would know. It is not doing great. That link your provided shows F2P games, and a couple not even out in USA/EU or at all.

Though, I don't think you understand that DCUO's issue isn't the subscription model. It's the DLC model. Locking your F2P players out of content as a "F2P" game is bad business and leads to these issues. If DCUO could make it on just subscription based then YAY! More power to them... But they can't(If you don't remember, DCUO tried that and faild).

The only games that work with DLC lockouts are games like Call of Duty or Battlefield. Games that don't require the DLCs to progress but add the benefit of more maps/supplies.

My point is... people are complaining.. and then people are bringing up micro transactions and this is where I come in...

They need to show DCUO's income vs Micro Transactions of the Free Game's Income.. other wise it means nothing. this is what this thread seemed to turn into is DCUO is doing it wrong and they need to start doing it "this way"...
Show me proof.. no one has yet done that and dodged that question and there for they are assuming.

On top of that I bring back my original statement... y'all need to start voting with your wallets... if you don't like the way things are being done.. no one is making you play.

Yeah now that I look back at the sub it's not really "Legendary" is it ? Since none of these are strictly exclusive. It's more of a convenience sub. This will be my last month of subbing and then ill probably buy DLC that has content I want to run.

Please... don't tell me Free to Play games are the only successful games and you cannot tell me WOW was not successful.... they can discuss till the cows come home till they do it.. it hasn't happened yet.

How are you measuring success? I posted a link in that very quote you quoted..
Where are your links to provide proof.. until that happens... you are just talking out yo butt.
"The only game that can..." statement is false already... if it can work in one game it can work for another.. there is not "I can do it, but you can't"

I'm still waiting on proof.. and so far people are just assuming and providing opinions.. please post a link or something providing PROOF that DCUO is failing or the DLC mentality is wrong... if you can't.. that is just assumption and your opinion...

You didn't answer my question... you also didn't provide links to proof of statement..
I don't know what PWE is.. so if you are going to debate this.. you are going to have to provide links to what I asked... if those F2P games are still updating, that's great... I asked for a side by side comparison... how many and what update are they on.. and how often do they update?

Links please.. links.

tl;dr version: I'm annoying and I write walls of text.

You sort of stomped on anyone attempting to suggest that f2p was a viable (that's viable not better) model. Originally you said you wanted an example of a game that was f2p that had been around as long as DCUO but as soon as you had that you asked for the sort of info that nobody could provide by demanding (repeatedly) numbers to back it up which are largely impossible to get. This is not least because this game is part of SOE and thus Sony. I had a quick hunt around and came up with this from November this year:
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304073204579168833679539814
There's not really a specific mention of the SOE part of Sony but it does mention that only 3 bits posted a profit in one quarter and none of them had anything to do with videogames, plus the layoffs are relatively public knowledge, plenty of articles on them about. Obviously even then you can't tell if that means DCUO is losing money or if it's the department as a whole or if it's just that the level of investment (with new games coming) is causing that. But meh.

If we pick another company, one that specialises in f2p games such as Nexon and do a rough search around we get:
http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20130808006587/en/Nexon-Announces-Quarter-2013-Results
So they're posting profits although they have also diversified into mobile gaming. Nevertheless they have a quite wide range f2p games that run with a cash shop and no sub method. MapleStory is now ten years old and still has a large player base and is franchised across the world. Mabinogi (at nine years old) actually has some sub options which actually do grant access to some stuff you cant get any other way, for example if you want a house or to own a guild, but all the game content in terms of storylines and actually playing is still accessible to f2p players (and all newbie players get free access until they level up a bit so they can see what they are missing). Don't get me wrong if you spend money in any of these games you will have a much easier time and usually have a better looking and more fun experience, but you're not locked out of being able to do anything if you don't, it'll just take you longer.

It's not to say that one model is necessarily better than another, but f2p with all content available to free players is certainly viable as a business option. One of the complaints I've seen over and over again here is the lack of change in the cash shop styles here - that is something you will almost never see in a f2p game as that's practically their bread and butter. New styles are churned out near constantly in most of these. They also have content updates and seasonals and minor updates and major revamps and all the things that happen here. But how often you cry? *grumble mumble* well I can't read Korean so I headed over to the US Mabinogi site and skimmed their announcements, so December: a new pet, a giveaway, a game update revamping the travel system, an exp boosting event, seasonal gambling item added (one of my least favourite things about f2p but no worse than replay badges really), some sort of new character class and a seasonal event. The previous month was less busy with another of those character class thingies, a giveaway and some sort of UI update I guess. So yeah, they seem to have updates covered.

Personally, I started MMO-ing on subscription games where your sub meant you didn't need to spend any more real money - there was no cash shop/premium or f2p option, you just paid up and got access to everything or you didn't and you didn't. I was fine with that. I think in the end that's my preferred option because I get to feel like I'm supporting the game but I don't have to fuss over anything else. I spent a decent amount of time in f2p games like the Nexon ones and whilst they do like to attempt to wring money from you at every possible opportunity there is a huge benefit in that you can pay in when you want to and not when you don't feel like it. It makes it much easier to drop in and out of a game, plus since many (most?) purchases are permanent rather than services, if you return to the game later you immediately reap the rewards of your previous spending and as the game doesn't penalise you for not being subscribed you are free to access all the things you used to do and spend time getting back into stuff and then deciding to spend more money rather than here where if you drop your sub you are suddenly massively restricted in terms of content and various other factors.

I can't recommend DCUO to people I know, most of whom have a shared experience of those types of f2p games without warning them about the restrictions that DCUO has in place and for most of them the cash cap and restriction on trading is enough to make sure they try something else instead. That's unfortunate because most of them are game players who are happy to spend money in the games they play. Other than the DC IP here there isn't a huge amount to recommend this game over another. That IP does have some serious pulling power though (I came after I got all Gotham withdrawal after finishing Arkham City) and I am loving it here and I am subbed but it's only going to take me so far. Eventually my sub will come up for renewal and I will have to look at the game the same as everyone else and say is it worth it to me? A big part of me wants to say it's a no brainer and of course it will be but honestly there are a lot of bugs for a sub based game, a lot of annoyances, some rather shockingly (to me) rude staff. Even early on I wondered why you could run two roles if you then had to go through this laborious respec process to switch properly... wouldn't it be much better if you could just totally switch between builds? Oh they already working on that? how cool is that? Oh except they are going to want to make you pay extra to make it functional? Hmm... and now the switch from SC in the sub to the less useful LP, that there pretty much guarantees I won't bother ambling over to try out any other Sony games if/when I get bored of this one. Looking back in the history of the game there are unfortunately numerous other points where their decisions really seem to equate to "and now we will change stuff so you're still paying the same but somehow it's worth a little less now." I'll certainly get my money's worth out of my sub but will they manage to convince me to keep paying? I'm less sure. If I reach a point where I'm no longer so fussed about the IP I think I could probably find a better option.

The reason I "demanded" was I wanted someone to provide proof.. people just assuming is never good so that said.
When analyzing data... like fractions you have to have common denominators..

Just because SOE had layoffs doesn't mean the game or (DCUO) wasn't profitable...
Or even Sony.. they are different departments.

Next.. Ok.. we have profits from a F2P game.. good.. now what are the profits of DCUO? (we have to compare them side by side).

The whole reason of my posting in here was simply this...
Prove to me why the DLC mentality is wrong...
This hasn't been done yet .. There are people in here touting DCUO is doing it wrong because of DLC or what ever... (different stories from different folks I guess)..

So.. that being said.. I wasn't saying that there wasn't successful F2P games.. I was asking for examples (just saying there are doesn't mean anything when debating).

Lastly, we cannot assume anything without the facts... you tried your best but did not prove what DCUO is doing isn't good for them as a company...

I'm despite what people think, I do not know the answer to these questions I ask... I just want people to use facts when debating and not opinion... You can post successful F2P games.... I have posted successful "Subscription" games...
One cannot assume that it ONLY works with one company to have DLC and not another until the game is completely done and over with. if DLC works with FPS.... then there is no reason to assume it will not work for DCUO.

I'm not claiming anything in this thread, I'm asking for proof of what is being said.. so when someone is saying something they can back it up with proof be it an article.. ore DCUO's actual site... otherwise as I have said time and time again... it's just opinion... it's your Opinion the DLC thing sin't working for DCUO and you draw conclusions based on actions.. but DCUO hasn't actually stated why or why not some of these things have happened that people are CLAIMING.. they are assuming..

Stop assuming and post quotes.. post articles and post proof that the DLC mentality is hurting the gamer population.

I can't blame you for not reading my wall of text properly but if you had you'd realise the only thing I set out to prove was that f2p without restricted content is a viable business model i.e. there are companies that rely on games running primarily on this model and they make enough money to survive, invest in their games and in fact even turn a profit. I actually specifically said that it didn't necessarily make one business model necessarily better than another.

The only way you'd get DCUO specific figures for profits are if you worked in the accounting department in SOE. The article I linked covered all of Sony's departments and specifically mentioned the three that posted profits, and video games wouldn't have fallen within any of their remits so this belongs to one of the departments posting a loss - which since they posted an overall loss wasn't a huge surprise. Again as I said it doesn't reflect directly on DCUO but it's about as close as you're likely to get. The layoffs included programmers and game designers which implies there is something that needed cutting within their games department although again there's no way to know whether that is in any way impacted on DCUO specifically.

In life it is often not possible to have all the data we would like when we make decisions, judgement calls or form opinions about things. We make our best guesses based on the incomplete information we have.

You can aggressively berate people about the way their opinions are not facts, but that in itself is unlikely to achieve anything other than making you look unreasonably hostile and overly pedantic. Do I need to add the words "in my opinion" there? Or do you understand that it's a given that that's what a forum post is...?

It goes both ways.

Let's see your posts and quotes that prove the current system does not hurt the DCUO population.
Otherwise, you're just trolling the thread with YOUR opinion.

My opinion: as to the original topic: Legendary is an epic fail to anyone who
A: Hasn't been around long enough to get into the new content as soon as it's released
or
B: Doesn't have friends who have been around long enough to get into the new content as soon as it's released

You'll notice I state: MY OPINION.
But, if asked for advice by a new player, I'll say, "Quit playing before you get hooked. This game only leads to frustration."

IF the game and system were NOT an epic fail,
I'd be subbing and recommending the game to friends and family, like I did with CoH.

Also: You brag about all the game updates in DCUO...
To me: From experience, I know that a game update means a week or two before the game runs right again, due to bugs in EVERY SINGLE update since I started playing.
So, in essense, you're saying it's a good thing that the game keeps getting more and more bugs?
NOT something I would brag about.
IMO, we'd be better off with less game updates - especially if they only updated when the update was actually working!