Why does suppressor turret clipping get special treatment?

Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by Arqueiro Robusto, Sep 29, 2021.

  1. OnlyNomad The One Above All

    I don't understand how Gadget players enjoy doing the turret jump cancel, stealth cheese, artifact switching, (insert other ridiculous cheesy method), just to top some meaningless scoreboard.

    I'm getting too old for all of this, lol.

  2. L T Devoted Player

    People complained that you could clip with suppressor turret a long while ago. The developers (Avair at the time I think?) looked at it and adjusted the cool down of the ability. Given that, I have to assume it's now working as intended.
    • Like x 2
  3. Illumin411 Loyal Player

    zactly... :D
    • Like x 1
  4. TKMcClone Steadfast Player

    I have the unpopular opinion that all clipping/cancelling is cheese. I think the animations are there for a reason and the game should force them to finish. One could argue for shorter animations or more damage on longer animations/combos. The combo power sets should scratch the itch of any players wanting for post tray button mashing.
  5. Proxystar #Perception

    Just because something was changed or tweaked previously doesn't make it exempt to future change later on down the track, that is evidentially the case for everything in this game, that is not a defense as to whether or not there is an issue here.

    We should be discussing whether or not there actually is an issue based on the merit of it, not whether it was previously looked at and to what extent, I appreciate you clearly hold a view that it is fine, but others obviously hold a view that it isn't.

    I admit that I don't play gadgets extensively and I'm happy (as stated earlier) for the gadgets players that do to outline exactly why they need to allow suppressor turret to behave this way, outside of merely using it (as some call cheesing it) to increase their damage output, which in my mind at least, isn't really the intent of the power.

    When you use it like this you're not really using it for its designed purpose (which is to be a pet) unless of course you're arguing that a "pet summon" power is designed to provide you with a power that allows you to clip everything else every 3s and then jump cancel it with absolutely zero intent ever of using the actual pet.

    At that point you may as well scrap the pet element, just make it a clipping power with nothing else attached to it and rename it "clippy mcgadgets clip"

    You may disagree but I cannot see the justification that a pet summon power is designed with that in mind, especially when none of the others are, that really indicates to me at least and probably many others that this is pet summon power is an outlier and should be changed to behave in a manner more consistent with the others.

    You don't have to agree, but just my thoughts.
    • Like x 1
  6. OnlyNomad The One Above All

    I have not heard a legitimate reason yet why Gadget's Turret clipping should stay outside of the regular "It helps with our DPS output". It's pretty obvious at this point that those who are defending this "Cheese" mechanic are Gadget players themselves, who simply wish to stay on top of the scoreboard. Nothing wrong with chasing the competitiveness but I feel like everyone should be on an even playing field.

    I for one feel like there shouldn't be any power clipping and cheesing all around the board, but unfortunately I have no control over that. I agree with your point that the Turret was probably (Definitely) not designed to be used as a clipping power, that thing was and is supposed to be a support pet like the Earth and Sorcery ones. It's obviously not intended and should be fixed.

    Gadget is an outlier and should be treated as such, the reason why this issue catches so much flak is because the vast majority of competitive DPSes chase the meta and in this case, Gadget is the meta.
  7. Stanktonia Dedicated Player

    Suppressor clip should stay (cooldown and all), because of what it is, and the playstyle that it allows, however it still needs some form of adjustment. Reducing the damage of any power that clips into suppressor would be a fair tweak, gadget players still get the playstyle that suppressor turret enables, while everyone else gets to enjoy the field being a little more balanced. If the reduction in damage is noticeable this could be a good adjustment
  8. Stanktonia Dedicated Player

    Are y’all really in here calling clipping cheese lmao, not suppressor individually, but just clipping in general lol?? Is that what we’re doing now
    • Like x 1
  9. AV Loyal Player

    It does exactly what Phase Dodge was (pretty damn quickly) nerfed into the ground for doing ages ago, but only for one power. Because of Turret clipping and Circuit Breaker, there's no reason for a Prec player to not be either Gadgets or Elec in most content and a Prec player not on those powers is usually severely hamstringing themselves, which is silly design.

    Both are properly balanced for Might use (clipping TP with it in otherwise optimal Might Gad rotations results in sightly less overall DPS due to the slot it takes up relative to actually summoning either Turret or RSK) and Elec's base DPS without CB is below average for ST and extremely dirty for mixed use (ie. It was specifically balanced around the fact it has a stronger buff and is indiscriminate af).

    Even with the imbalance amongst Prec powers Turret & CB create, Prec is still extremely dependent on EoG stacking shenanigans (even/especially when the AoE split hurts useful damage and is just cheese-splashing infinite respawn mobs you don't want dead anyways) and has a very shallow min:max ceiling. This, because of the public misconceptions about Prec overall, which are predominately a result of Turret and CB specifically, has resulted in Prec being extremely stagnant and it's exactly why every new Prec artifact has been milquetoast af. It's also resulted in the public meta being pointlessly obtuse, which is exacerbated by the fact that recent episodes' gen mod systems make it aggravating af (ie. completely unrealistic) to switch between Prec & Might on Live on top of the already steep arti investment differences.

    The game would be healthier if they'd make Turret behave the same way other pets currently do and if they'd convert CB into buffing separate Might & Prec percentages instead of just being a blanket DMG buff (since Prec on Elec hits the same as on every power and isn't scaled down the way its Might ST is). There is no good reason that this hasn't been addressed... especially Turret clipping... when Phase Dodge got turbo-nuked for the same thing despite being vastly more balanced due to it being available to everyone and requiring aggressive Trolling.
    • Like x 1
  10. Black Prime OG Devoted Player

    Lol. Bro, it was like this with every FOTM power. When rage was released. The only ones crying not to nerf beserk were the rage players. Same when electric, HL, Mental...ect. All powers at one time or another had people that loved the power and loved the damage it produced at the time. It happens. They will need it eventually. Just no reason right now. It's a prec world right now. Gadgets and electric are top because of how they perform.

    Next DLC could release something that might change the meta. Highly doughtful, but maybe.
  11. Stanktonia Dedicated Player

    Y’all should also acknowledge the skill it takes to perform gadgets at a high level too, because to maximize its damage truly takes a certain level of skill because of everything that goes into it. Gadgets isn’t your basic 1234 power, so there’s a noticeable skill incentive Attached to it, so any player you see doing good dmg with gadgets is being rewarded for their skill with gadgets
  12. Proxystar #Perception

    You can't nerf the powers that clip into suppressor because that's virtually most things, if you altered those powers and reduced their damage then you're effectively nerfing every other power set that might also use those powers and therefore reduce their damage output despite the fact they were never able to take advantage of turret in the first place.

    Most of the players are using super speed movement powers, so nerfing those would be inappropriate when the issue isn't that power, it remains the turret.


    A lot of other power types are using phase dodge (16seconds) to clip with a cool down significantly longer than suppressor turret. This is why gadgets players in my opinion are resistant to any change to suppressor turret, at least in my opinion, because losing turret, means they lose that tornado pull burst every 3seconds, the real question in my mind is, should they? perhaps, especially given the advantage they already possess by being able to expand their load out through stealth as well?

    I better run though I can already hear the screams of "Reeee" ;)
  13. AV Loyal Player

    More of them are macroing than you'd think. It's also not that intensive without macroing, it just takes a bit practice.

    Note: I am 100% not supporting/condoning DPS macroing and I think it's as weaksauce af of a crutch as it would be in a fighting game.
    • Like x 2
  14. Proxystar #Perception

    Thanks for the post :)
    • Like x 1
  15. Proxystar #Perception

    I'm not anti clipping in fact largely speaking I'm pro clipping, I like clipping, just not inconsistencies.

    I don't see suppressor turret as a power designed to provide a unique advantage to gadgets, I would argue that's stealth, in the same way quantum tunnel is a unique advantage to quantum.

    I am sympathetic of the viewpoint that suppressor turret is a pet power and as such it should behave like the other pet powers in terms of its summon, but like I said I'm also entirely open to hearing the other viewpoints if they're logical and rational.
    • Like x 1
  16. Stanktonia Dedicated Player

    You’re misunderstanding, I’m not talking about individual tray powers being nerfed, I’m suggesting that once a power is clipped into suppressor, suppressor is the item that reduces the dmg of pdart, taser pull, or whatevers being clipped into it. this isn’t affecting other powersets because suppressor would be the medium that fuels the damage reduction
  17. Proxystar #Perception

    Sure, my only problem with that is the difficulty of creating a system that attempts to reduce the damage of a power that preceded it, when the preceding power will already have registered against the NPC? It doesn't seem to be practical when the easier route is probably to do other things like increase the cool down of turret or change it so it can't be cancelled (like other pets).

    I'd hazard a guess increasing the cool down of turret is less preferable because if you were to inadvertently get interrupted with the intent of actually using the pet that would be detrimental.
    • Like x 1
  18. AV Loyal Player

    As a big fan of how intense pre-nerf Phase Dodge gameplay could be, I agree with the sentiment of wanting the fast-clip aggressive playstyle preservered... but since they already had the same thing with old school PD I don't think it's a good justification to keep Turret the way it is. They could arguably just revert PD to its old school CD but yeah I doubt that'd happen (and that would still leave Prec Elec out of balance vs other powers on Prec).

    It should also be understood that Suppressor Turret's summon behaviour makes it actively worse as an actual pet. Every other pet in the game can have its summon guaranteed and done instantly by clipping the summon power, but we can't do that with Turret because it cancels the summon. Similarly, in addition to Turret requiring its animation to go full duration, it has a slightly longer summon and it wasn't until recently that the summon was even permanent. It's still better for a Might player to actually use the Turret in most fights but those behaviours mean that for certain bosses it can't really be used vs RSK, which can be re-summoned with ease (and there's no real advantage to having anything else in its place either so its a very derpy-feeling issue). Its especially silly because Suppressor Turret is pretty much the best pet in the game if it weren't for its summon behaviour.
    • Like x 2
  19. Proxystar #Perception

    Which is the irony of it somewhat I guess, because changing it although negatively impacting it in one way is a positive change in other ways.

    You're right though the other option would be to change the cooldown of Phase Dodge, but in saying that too, that could have other impacts because it's also a shield, when you've already got people suggesting to use that to avoid one shots, if you were able to use that every 3s it might cause other issues :) shrug lol
  20. Stanktonia Dedicated Player

    I believe you, that’s why some of the tac swaps are so seamless, because of macros. Macros were brought to my attention back In the day after seeing people jump clip fan and plasma retch (+phantom grenade) without actually jumping at all lol, at least macros are indigenous to pc players though, ps players still have to rely on skill to perform at a high level with gadgets.