When the numbers are not representing their value

Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by BRainIAK, May 8, 2020.

  1. BRainIAK Active Player

    CR is one thing. Arts are another; but, SP? Since when did SP carry the crazy CR like model where the higher SP can still wind up in some sort of crazy factor-in logic to make 3 > 4?

    I cannot express this enough. The number should definitely represent an ACTUAL value rather than factor-in variables. There are too many factors that affects the meaning of the numbers whereas the numbers barely serve a purpose. If someone has 300cr but low SP that value is deceptive to both the player and the team he plays with. Is there a way to create a more meaningful representation of player progress than the unreliable CR, SP, arts and all the other factors that make the number representation practically meaningless because the value is not the number itself but only a single factor that values into another number we can't see.

    To be frank (and I hope I am not offensive {Thin skin is the worst weakness}). A numbers is simply a glyph that represents a "definite" value. When factors alter the value guess what??? The number should then change to represent whatever the value was changed to by the "factor-in". In place of variable factors another number needs to represent the totality of all of these numbers together so that there isn't confusion between values and factors of the value.

    I have been reported and accused of cheating for badly beating players with much higher PVPcr but no SP.. Why give these players the illusion that they will be strong? They waste much time to advance just to be deceived by their own numbers? A rating should represent a rating not the calculative one value factor such as gear levels.. That should be called gear level or something..

    To wrap it all up. CR vs. SP. vs Arts have such an imbalanced proficiency that no one knows what is best to have the most of... You need to have a number to represent all of this variables because the numbers are not reliable and unreliable numbers are useless. Just useless. If you have 5 slices of pie and then slice two of the pieces of pie the number of pieces increase but the value doesn't so if I was to own a store and practice this my customers would not be too happy because I (the baker) sets the value of each number of slices of pie as well as the price and value of each; if I give 2 pies to one customer and then on the next slice one in two pieces, I am cheating that customer. I am cheating whoever trusts the value of my numbers because I allow the value of the number itself to change. This seems to closely resemble the logic behind this game's system of value. The value increase based on other factors not the actual numbers which makes progression more complicated than it has to be.
    • Like x 1
  2. nawanda Loyal Player

    I have absolutely no idea what this is about ^.
    • Like x 3
  3. Schimaera Devoted Player

    The way I see it they suggest some single number that factor in Artifact (ranks?), Skill Points and CR and such.

    Basically something like the checksum on all of these factors like with 305 CR, 3 Rank 200 Artifcats and 500 SP would be 19 or something.
    Or something that shows bigger numbers like CR+SP+3xArtifacts would be 1.405. Correct me if I misunderstood you, op.
    • Like x 2
  4. TheLorax 10000 Post Club

    Could you retype in layman's terms?
    • Like x 3
  5. Gromm865s Active Player

    If I'm reading this right here's my thought, I have a 265cr 400+sp alt Ice Tank with the max artifact being 59, the amount of damage I take is insane, even on lower open world bounties. Chaos gotham with the shogg 3-4 hits and I'm dead, even when in a group with a healer. Now my 300 cr 445sp water dps with 130+ arts, I have no problem with that fight at all. Even in on duty content, my tank with low arts struggles, makes no sense.

    Very upset I spent so much money unlocking sp on an alt thinking it would be ok with low arts, only to realize it's useless unless I have high arts too. Way to many folks sub 200sp at 300+ cr with 200 arts breezing through content. Kinda seems pointless to even get sp anymore
  6. StealthBlue Loyal Player

    I think that's what the op is saying. This would be similar to how cr used to account for colored gear mods. The only problem is that this number wouldn't necessarily be useful, and even the current separate numbers aren't useful without additional information.

    The CR displayed in the group list is currently a measure of equipped gear, using just they're item levels. However, you could have a CR 300 player wearing a full set of gear for the wrong roll (DPS wearing healer gear for example).

    Same goes for SP, someone could have over 500 SP, but if they've maxed out all 6 crits (2 DPS, 2 heal, 2 troll) and spread their sp along the 6 stats (might, precision, restoration, health, vitalization, dominance), it means much less than someone that has properly spec'd for the rule they are playing.

    Again for artifacts, you could have a DPS with maxed out orb of arion, dilustel refractor, and bop comlink which would add favorably to the combined number but would be significantly less useful than a combination getting their play style.

    You could also include augments, but again someone could have made out and be wearing the wrong augments for the role they are playing.

    So you'd have to add some kind of role specific weighting to try to account for someone using things "incorrectly". But then the number would be reduced for someone in a battle hybrid role (battle troll for example), since they would be using some DPS centric things and some role specific things.

    Let's not forget player skill level, which can't be quantified to add but is important. Some amount of skill can make up for deficiencies in the areas that would go into this overall number. You have no need to look past elite raids to prove this for yourself. There are groups that legitimately beat them first week/day and others that can't even when the raid is several episodes old.

    In short, this number wouldn't be nearly as useful as the op hopes, because it could be inflated by using the wrong items/placing sp poorly. It also would account for player skill, which is also important.
    • Like x 1
  7. inferno Loyal Player

    @op -you can't. At least not as easy as assigning "1" number value. The CR was easy because it related to gear and gear has a fixed point of stats, whether might, precision, resto and etc.

    But when it comes to skill points, you'll notice that at each suggested increment it adds a base stat + a percentage. I.e. the first 5 sp adds a base 80 to might + 1% of the base might.

    On top of these you then add the stats of augments and base mods.

    On top of that you finally add in any stats you get from ranked artifacts and any percentages you get from those.
    • Like x 1
  8. Akaiko Well-Known Player

    Yes, it would be nice if we had a "number" that actually takes into account gear level, skill points possessed, artifact levels (as well as how many), and augment levels (as well as how many).

    CR is calculated based on gear level. It really isn't that much more math to include the amount of SP possessed (versus the max possible), the amount of artifacts & their levels (versus the max possible), and the amount of augments & their levels (versus the max possible) to make another "number."

    It's only if you try to account for roles, the type of artifacts/augments, where the skill points are allocated that it could actually get difficult--but technically, it still wouldn't be impossible.
    • Like x 1
  9. Heywiar Committed Player

    The revamp and artifacts are both total jokes. They need to do another revamp with artifacts in mind. I hate those things.
    • Like x 1
  10. StealthBlue Loyal Player

    If they were to do something like that, there would have to be a weighting factor for each place something comes from. No matter what you could arrive at certain value using different combinations of things.

    For simplicity let's look at just cr and sp. Someone could have a CR of 300 and 100 SP, if the numbers are just added together, that new number would be 400. But a CR 100 character with 300 SP would have that same new number (400). The first one would be at end game and have a bit of a hard time but the second wouldn't quite be at AF1, but would have an easier time with the content they can get in.

    The weighting would have to account for percentage of stats from the location, and possible be set to max possible percentage (which would have to be looked at each episode).

    The flat sum would just be a very strange number whose real meeting would be obscured by what all goes into it.
    CR 306 (I'm not sure if this is max, but it's close)
    SP 550 (I'm not sure if this is max, but it's close)
    Augments 4x 265 and 2x 23
    Artifacts 3x 200 (you could also add 8 for the cola)
    Base generator mods 13x 37 (current mods are v37 if I remember correctly)
    White mods 8 (though there isn't always a useful leg mod)
    League hall proficiencies 13
    For a grand total of 3,027 ( not including the cola)

    Now white mods and some of the league hall proficiencies affect your combat ability more than this would imply, as do the episodes augments. So you can see why weighting would be important. Though if you only assigned weighting to those and the proficiencies ran out, you could end up taking a big hit on this catch all number.

    Even using ratios and multiplying would confused things. Let's say the batteries in your generator died, you would now have 0/12 for generator mods, so your catch all number would be 0 (since none are applying to your current stats), but you would still be fairly effective in combat.
    • Like x 2
  11. nawanda Loyal Player

    Thanks for that. So he wants a coefficient ranking system for characters.
  12. BRainIAK Active Player

    Whoa... I actually agree with most of what all of you are saying.

    To put it frank "overall stat" values are what should be calculated into the CR rather than just gear levels. By this; SP, Arts, Gear level, etc are seen by those who the stat actually serves a purpose. An overall stat rating is much more useful in game. This could a.) Show us where we really stand in comparison with our team and b.) encourage players to strengthen what is weak.

    My assessment comes from the perspective of seeing players often argue over numbers when the the arguments to me seem to be moot considering that the numbers they were arguing over were mirky at best due to inconsistencies and/or flat out disproportions. One particularly disturbing instance I've watched was in an instance where my wife was playing "The Clock Tower Raid" and one player seemed to be bullying another and he had half the player's SP,and lower CR which of course added insult to injury. The only thing I didn't check was arts which shouldn't make THAT much of a difference. The player was a total jerk; insulting the lower performing players the whole Raid while achieving insane numbers.

    You could argue that perhaps there was a vast difference in arts, augs, etc.. that certain unaccounted for stats probably made the difference. You could even argue about loadouts, and personal differences not related to the game could accomplish this; however, what cannot be argued is the actual value exchange that happens when you a.) You attack an enemy and/or b.) Attacked by an enemy. These values are static in that they will reflect either you precision/might stat. You have Health, Defense, etc... Add them all together for a calculative rating and then we would be heading in the right direction. o_O
    • Like x 1
  13. Erin Arror Dedicated Player

    • Like x 1
  14. MrStoob Well-Known Player

    Unfortunately, there is no way to indicate competence either, so we're back to square one really.
    • Like x 3
  15. willflynne 10000 Post Club

    Pretty much this.

    Any measurement in this game like CR will, at best, show potential. Whether or not a particular player makes the most of that potential is another matter entirely.
    • Like x 2
  16. Pale Rage Dedicated Player

    --from other comments....

    You can't really assign a number to someone for all those things. Someone could have 500sp and not know how to properly allocate then. Someone could have 3 Max artifacts and they're not even the right ones for the role (yes, I've seen it).

    CR, simply, is a 'key' that unlocks new content. Competence and skill level get you through said content.
  17. StealthBlue Loyal Player

    If I understand correctly, you are now suggesting to add stats together for this new catch all number? That still has several flaws.

    For example, several Tank powers have some change in stats while they are active. My ice tank has 81,511 defense just standing there but has 97,813 when I activate a power. Rage's health can increase fairly significantly as well, if they are doing things right. So this catch all number could fluctuate wildly during an instance. This could also lead people to spec into a stat that isn't necessarily as beneficial for them to boost this catch all number. That means they would actually be less effective at their role to get a higher number. That is completely counter intuitive, and just shows how bad a single catch all number is.

    What I think you really want is the stat tab to show up on inspect, and possibly show the total number of SP in the stat tab. You may also want to be able to inspect anyone in your group no matter their proximity.
    • Like x 1
  18. BRainIAK Active Player

    Say less....
  19. tioalbert Well-Known Player

    Hello everyone.

    as I understand it in this case see points cr 300 vs cr 280, it is misleading.

    For all the above discussed, so instead of seeing the total cr tab, we should see total statistics of skill and weapon dps.

    to be continued......
  20. tioalbert Well-Known Player

    suppose the following;

    In the group we have a cr300 player with sp 50.

    because he is a player who helped him pass instances and I do not spend time with sp, also in the same way I do not spend time uploading artifacts and specific increases in damage.

    their statistics will be only for armor and few sp, artifacts and increases.

    at 20,000.
    and the recommended minimum of instance where they entered is 19,000 damage.

    now player cr 280 if I spend time and made an effort to specifically raise artifact damage, increase, mod. home base and active league advantage.

    to be continued.....