Whatever happened to crowd control?

I took a brief glance over the recent posts, and tagged everyone who posted at least once without referring to crowd control but simply talking about power.

CC in content works - yes! I agree. We are capable of crowd control.
Is viable during many situation - again, yes, it is useful to stun the mobs so they can't attack.
However - when the group is well geared and play well, they do not need this. From all of my experience, it is far more power efficient to feed the DPS power so the fight ends quicker than to stun the mobs and have the fight last longer. There are few moments when this is not true in T5 raids, and the majority of those moments are general gameplay (e.g. tank is dead, mobs spawned behind the group etc), rather than specific design of enemies and encounters.

You are of course free to disagree with this, and I have no issue with people debating whether or not content has been designed with crowd control in mind. It is a starting premise of this thread.

What I mind is people making this thread all about the power issue. That's not what this thread is for. This thread is about the design of content, not the design of power out.

Whilst, yes, this is the sort of situation that allows controllers to CC more often, it is nevertheless not content designed specifically for crowd control. We could have infinite power to control the mobs as much as we please and I would still be complaining about the lack of dedicated content for controllers because whatever you want the standard for our role to be - be it power battery or full on crowd control - there has been a decline of content designed with the necessity for crowd control, and I want that to stop. I want the developers to be thinking of our role when they are making content, I want them to be thinking "What can we do to make this particular section important for controllers? How can we engage them more than they normally are? What difference does this bit have from every other encounter in the game?" I don't want this game to be all about how quickly DPS can kill things.

So yes, you're right, getting rid of the power issue would allow players more opportunities to spend their power on control instead of DPS burn. But a) that's not likely to happen and b) it does not solve the underlying issue of gameplay design.

The purpose of this thread is to gather support for designing content with interesting mechanics that favour crowd control over other methods. It is to provide examples and ideas of ways this could happen - with the current playstyle in mind. It is to show that despite current trends, many controllers are actually still interested in crowd control rather than being a power battery. If you want to contribute to this discussion I am genuinely interested in what ideas you might have, as you seem knowledgeable and invested in the role.

However, if all you wish to discuss is how "blue bar healing" needs to go, please start another thread. As I have said, I will be more than willing to participate in that discussion.

If we work Backward, I may agree.

Sons Of Trigon

• Each Duo is made easier with CC
• Trigon's Prison CC is useful to handle the mobs before the boss and helpful in the final boss room

Origin Crisis

• Ads in side rooms
• Troller debuff in second room
• CC when fighting Nexus Robot (4th boss fight)

Home Turf

• When doing Arkham and Steel works missions

Hand Of Fate

• CC in both Dues in Seeds when fighting bosses.

Going further back...I can really only call out the FOS raids as having an actual CC mechanic to beat a boss. Even with the Batcaves they simple had smaller ads you had to CC, but with the proper gear you don't need to worry about it. I could see the potential for more content that used this mechanic, as long as it made sense

But everything in this post can be said for every power EXCEPT DPS, because every power is support. At one point in time You HAD to have a tank for FOS2 now people can get through it with a single troll and healer and everything else is DPS. Likewise there are some instances that no longer need healers because DPS can eliminate threats faster than dmg can be done to them. So I don't agree with what you are saying entirely...However, I do understand the point of your topic now.

How can the game make each support more crucial to the content without making it Uber difficult for players...I think the devs may already be trying to figure this out.

thats the crux of the biscuit.
It has been a steady and intentional direction of the game's design.
Coupled with the steady and intentional changes to the controller role including how debuffs, power regen, and dominance function.
And just to make sure throw in super sodas, mainframes and other non controller 'helpers' to diminish the role to 1 and a half buttons (1 PoT and 2 Recharges) for raids.

Any player that has been a consistent part of the Controller community since beta and launch knows the story all too well.
We went from being the most diverse exciting jack of all trades class to literal 1 trick energizer bunnies.
don't be fooled though, this is just one of the symptoms that has come to effect ALL roles other than DPS in the game.

the devs know.
the devs also know there is only 1 role and 1 form of development that makes them money in this game--DPS. period. end story. ::sigh::

i'm going to crawl back into my cave now like the good battery i am. cheers.

I see that I didn't make it clear in that particular post, but I have said it a number of times already in the thread - I am largely talking about raid content. Also, in this you are going back through DLCs - I said go back through tiers. Tier 2 (specifically raids) has loads of in-built crowd control oriented enemies and encounters. Tier 3 (specifically raids) has a couple of encounters, and maybe one or two enemies. Tier 4 (specifically raids) has virtually nothing I can think of. Tier 5 (specifically raids) has, what, sparks?

I have played all of these as they were released - some at a higher skill level than others. From my experience, and you can see the evidence I have presented, there has been a decline in the way that enemies and encounters have been designed with crowd control in mind.

That we will eventually outclass any tactical designs is an issue we were discussing much earlier in the thread - in most cases it is inevitable, though in some cases it may be avoided (shield armours, for instance, are still easier to kill if pulled away from other shield armours). However, again, just because we will outclass it eventually is no reason not to have it at all.

The problem is that not enough devs main controllers. The classes that are fun to play are the ones that devs play.

Also, as long as power consumption is only limited by how much the trollers can spam power, it will almost always be more efficient to just waste power unchecked. What penalty is there other than the controller's fun to dps everything into the ground?

Power output is not the problem when there is no limit to the rate it can be burned! Power will always just find a way to be generated. Pots, vit gear, supply drops whatever. It is far easier to limit power expenditure than it is to create unique encounters basically designed solely for controllers.

People can still waste their power by burning through it. Just make them work towards doing it without penalty via gear and skills.

That being said, I would love unique encounters that address the fun aspect of playing a controller. There is no need to settle on only one solution. However some solutions are mechanically easier to introduce than others.

Certain styles of play could be introduced slowly with feats being earned more quickly as the reward. Then gradually introduce the new mechanics to the rest of the zones.

Yes, I was aware that you were mainly talking about raids. Going through all of the content is a healthy way to look at everything though. I think the devs have done a better job with smaller mobs than with the raids, after looking at everything. Again I think that the devs are looking on how to solve the problem. You are right though it should not be a discarded task because as the game progresses it will become an important factor in keeping player interest up. Good post and topic btw, even better discussion

This post was a big giant -- "huh?!"

You cannot control the flow of discussion. You laid it out in your Op and players can and will discuss any aspect of the issue they choose to. They aren't threadjacking or posting off topic -- It may not be what you want, but that's not how the forums work. I was informed this myself when one of my threads went another direction and the mods repeatedly wouldn't moderate it.

You cannot discuss the issue in a vacuum. It's a HUGE issue that overlaps various areas of gameplay and your OP recognizes that and the responses reveal that as well. You cannot discuss one area of the issue specifically while ignoring the other aspects of it which are critical to any realistic or viable solutions. If you want to discuss resolution you have to discuss the issue in it's entirety.

This is like discussing the issues with Tanking in the game being unecessary (leading to players not wanting tanks at all) outside of last tier endgame and directing discussion to brainstorm new forms of content that involve tanking to make it more viable -- the content isn't the problem, it's the systems that surround the content that are counter supportive of a need for tanking, which are the real issue. The same is true of controlling. The content itself is fine and can be controlled fine. The issue is that the other systems of gameplay negate a need for controlling and unless you address those factors the role will always play like a battery and players will not need controlling.

If you cannot agree to this reasonably and entertain a real discussion on these issues, there isn't much to discuss at all.

As far as the content you want to discuss -- you've singled out scripted encounters for the most part. This isn't real game play at all. This doesn't do anything for controllers who want to play the actual game and feel like a controller. Those scripted events could be anything arbitrary like making a player run around in circles toggling consoles -- oh wait, we do that all the time. But making more scripted boss encounters is not a solution -- you need a solution for standard daily gameplay.

You lost me at "the content is fine." If you've played long enough to see the benefits of controllers using their control effects to speed up the pace of raids or pass objectives then you would agree the content is not fine. The designed content is what sends signals to a team that directs focus on how a team should operate to move forward. Placing the need to control to pass objectives grants controllers the justification to say, "I can't give you ALL of my power. I need it to pull/push so we can keep going."

Right now, there are little reasons for controllers to say that unless they are in a group wearing the minimum tier level gear for a raid and they are at these controlling spots in raids. Becoming overgeared is also problem and develops a new playstyle which is just more effective for a fast pace raid. The problem was we were overgeared with t4 for so long new and some old players thought that playstyle was the new universal approach, and the dev team not putting these control objectives did little give controllers an excuse to do more in new content.

Controllers still crowd control by aggressive and supportive actions. They just have poor communication skills and instead of asking for more control effect based NPCs or objectives, they refer to it as " I want more crowd controlling." That is what the OP, and a majority of other posters, fails in communicating.
I feel like a controller everytime I throw my debuff, weapon combo, or pot so I don't understand why players say they don't get to control when those 3 alone do just that. That is just a poorly thought out complaint to be honest. Control effects objectives dont have to be focused on bosses but in corridor battles and frequent lt type NPCs as well. All trash mobs are controlled anyway for no reward but just making them stop doing damage.

If any OP asks for ideas or discussion related to their topic only, that should be respected for the sake of starting a constructive thread. If any OP asks multiple times for several individuals to not derail their discussion, despite how weak of a presence they have, that should be respected and as a gesture of kindness posters should take their case somewhere else. Having misguided, confused, naive and childish adults rant about how something, that is a persons misinterpretation of game, is "broken" is not something people want to listen to. Especially if their understanding is just flat out confused and one sided.

this generation of players does not understand power management. That is personal gameplay issue and an issue some keep referencing that is also poorly distinguished. Power management is not taught, and despite the evidence in the game telling us its limited some still ignore it. This is an issue players have to take up with their teammates. Not with the design of the role which is what some are asking for. It is not difficult for a controller to back up their position on power out for their team unless they aren't aware of how their role operates or understands simple budgeting so they can explain it. Again, this is a personal gameplay issue that belongs for a group discussion. It has been asked to bring that discussion to another thread.

Placing control based objectives in future content gives controllers a reason to say they need their power or attention on something greater than the dps for the sake of progressing through the raid. If a team and controller is out of power because they are stuck using the same high and fast burn approach powered by 2 batteries then that is a personal gameplay issue. A issue resulting because a team failed to adapt to a situation where the DPS are meant to only watch/kite/do weapon based damage and be more power conservative.

The thread is focused on promoting more CE in raids and to get the devs to put more of it in raids. its not talking about " I need easy ways to be a battery because no one manages their power bar" or "remove insta power and nerf the pace of the game."

sorry, i'm not really reading all this. i just skimmed it... whatever you had to say here could have been summed up in a paragraph for sure.

the forums are a place for discussion of ideas. you raise a topic and that's that. players are open and free to discuss the entire range of the issue as they choose -- not restricted by the thread creator. the issue was brought up in the OP and any player can discuss whatever aspect of the topic they like to. they aren't restricted to a specific agenda. that's not how the forums work. don't believe me? ask a moderator.

like i said previously... given the scope that Tesseract would like to discuss... this thread can be summed up with: can the content be crowd controlled? yes. all mobs can be. /discussion there isn't anything else to discuss without talking about related aspects of gameplay which the OP doesn't want.

Lol. My posts are long because they back up my point 100%. Everything you just mentioned I brought up. Including the OP's poorly communicated thread title and requests. anyone can post whatever they want but for the sake of a constructive on topic thread, off topic posts should not be the main focus of a thread. In this case the power issue is poorly thought out and its stilll not understood its a personal gameplay issue.

I can make requests for people to discuss the matter that I intended to be discussed, and take other matters to a different thread.Sure, there's not much more than that I can do, but it never hurts to ask, right? It really bugs me when people ignore the main point of a thread.

Me: There's some issues with crowd control in the current game. Part of this is playstyle issues (and I am mentioning this for the sake of completeness), however content design also has a large factor. If the content was designed better, we would be forced to crowd control, and playstyle would not enter the equation. Can we think of some interesting encounters and mechanics to force crowd control?
Others: Get rid of blue bar healing!
Me: ...that's not really what I asked.
Others: It solves all of our problems!
Me: But it doesn't change how content is being designed, which is what I asked. Can we talk about the design of content?
Others: No! Let's talk about blue bar healing again because not enough threads talk about that!
Me: Please?
Others: Why don't you get it? Why are you talking about content design when you should be talking about blue bar healing?
Me: Because there are a dozen other threads out there talking about power issues, and I really wanted to talk about content design, and there are others here that want to talk about content design, but we keep getting dragged into arguments about blue bar healing, and more ridiculous than that, arguments over why we are talking about blue bar healing in a thread about content design.

i understand your frustration but i don't understand why you want to focus on such a very small component of the issue. maybe you've framed the purpose of the thread wrong (by bringing up the other issues you did do this actually). you got a lot of support in you OP by acknowledging various issues related to your concern but you're unwillingness to discuss it all has limited the activity of your thread this week. there really isn't anything to discuss because the gameplay itself is fine. it's the supporting issues. that's why no one is posting saying "hey lets have another encounter where we run in circles toggling consoles..." those are gimmicks and scripted events -- not standard daily gameplay. players can't be in a constant scripted boss fight.

you're not leaving much to talk about...

Actually the reason there isn't much discussion on "controlling" is because not many remember, know or understand how controlling mechanics work with our powers or weapons, with NPCs, and with tools/objectives already in game that can just be updated and reused. Everyone is just posting complete unrealistic or costly changes to how the role works in regards to controlling, and just complaining about power healing because that's the only thing they have to talk about (or think they know what to say.)

Anyone can complain about blue bar healing and have 100+ posts, likes and no opposition. The request on applying CE objectives and NPCs in raids requires more thought and a deeper understanding of how the game works and where it can be added. Which almost no one knows how to discuss lol.

I think a major problem lies with the Tanks because so much of CC can be done by them that often times our own CC moves become unnecessary and can work against the success of the group if adds gain immunity too many times...I dont agree with it and hate when Tanks tell me to stop giving adds immunity, but the reality is that its a problem...I think before anything that has to be solved

- I dont know how feasible it is to have adds that a controller HAS to stun either prior to the Tank pulling them or instead of the Tank pulling them, but that seems like an ideal solution

- Id like to see more boss fights like Brother Eye that can "overwhelm" the tank...So much going on that they have to rely on us to take care of certain adds (healer drones, neuromacs, etc)

- I was a fan of the Sparks in Nexus that hit outrageously hard and never gain immunity to control effects...I think that putting more of them in crowds of adds rather than encountered one at a time would be interesting

- I think adds that shield/"hide" unless stunned and/or defense debuffed is an interesting concept that was kind of brought up in the OPs post

- Id like to see more boss fights like the Zetta Drone in Inner where we had to keep the healing bots at bey on one side of the room while the tank has to move the boss to the other

Dont know how ive never posted in this before, seeing as this is the most frustrating thing about the game

I would think Stryker's Island where you fight mobs and the Eye of Brainiac where you have the NPCs only take damage when they are sepreated are the times where you need a controller most!

In my first post and other posts lost in the thread, I mentioned how to deal with tanks.

I dont see a problem with tanks and controllers ccing or immunites. One of the things that just amazes me is when a controller starts telling a tank how their role operates. The power that is spent feeding a tank to CC could've been focused on giving it to DPS for more burn. Any time a tank complains they can't "hold aggro cuz of controllers CC" I discredit anything they say. NPCs can be taunted even with control immunity and not every dps powerset benefits from having NPCs grouped up because of damage splitting. Any tank using immunities as an excuse for you not to CC, which you know is a natural effect, is a noob and needs to start studying the game.

I had to log in just to reply to this. I've been somewhat monitoring this thread because I've borderline given up on it ever being productive as it was originally intended. Why is it unproductive? I'm not trying to single you out, but it's a post such as this one.

Many veteran controllers have said in this thread multiple times that there is absolutely nothing at all wrong with the controller powersets themselves. They have exactly what they are intended to have. They have moves that control opponents. They have moves that debuff opponents. And then, they have a couple of moves that give power. We are NOT blue bar healers. We are NOT your personal batteries. There is NOTHING wrong with the power set.

You tell me there is nothing wrong with the gameplay, while we are saying that as a matter of fact, that's exactly where the problem lies. Content has been created that caters to the DPS only. It's obvious in the feats (speed feats galore and enrage timers) and it's obvious in the way the playerbase has shaped themselves around the content. Once upon a time the best raid formation was 2 of each role. While developers have tried to keep that up, they've failed. Now, teams want solo healers and solo tanks. I remember when T4 was top tier solo-trolling many raids at the T3/T4 level. It's all about taking 3, 4, or even 5 DPS into a run. Why? Because the DPS can faceroll through content. Just because that's what currently works to get through a raid does not mean that the gameplay is fine.

The funny thing about your post, and again I'm not trying to single you out, it's just that this post kind of captures what happens in other threads on the forums. An OP brings up a specific topic for discussion and someone comes in and goes on a little bit of a tangent. I'm sure I've done it myself. I'm sure I'm doing it now. But it's those little tangents that keep making the topic more broad until people are just throwing in info on anything remotely pertaining to the topic instead of addressing the issue the OP was looking for.

At this point? I'm just hoping they don't revamp the power set to literally make us "blue bar healers." I'd rather it be left alone than adding more power returning powers to my trees. Of course, if they do...I have been getting loads of non-controller Traces gear lately....

It hurts man. It hurts to read these words, but unfortunately there is not much evidence to contradict to you. Most of the threat that have the symbol of SOE are usually related topics of:
1. The new PS4 console.
2. Issues related to dps.

Well, I'll keep looking for more evidence, for now we have to settle this issue was taken to "powers and movements".

Dialogue.

Tesseract: Today we will talk about whatever happens to crowd control in Raids.
Devs. : yea Whatever.
Tesseract: But this is an important issue where many players are participating with constructive ideas.
Devs. : maybe we will move this topic to "powers and movement" as this sounds like another boring thread on the blue bar healers.
Tesseract: Please!
Devs. : You know, we have more important things to attend to as promote PS4 in the game and stuff like that. For now the DPS are happy with the contents so ... yea ... continue to keep the conversation constructive ok.



Hi I'm Jack Ryder, and you're wrong. Why? because the Devs don´t care about the controller issue. Do you not believe me? look at the evidence! None of the hundreds of Threats about controller issues has appeared one devs to say something. We have not even seen a symbol of SOE even to censor!
And if you think that the fact that they changed the topic of "Gotham City" to "Powers and Movements" is pure coincidence. I'm sorry my friend but:

YOU ARE WRONG!

For group synergy, perhaps something as simple as a controller must CC with a stun or what-have-you before the damage to the target can be administered. Or a tank must hold aggro before damage can be administered. Or a combo of the two making the tank and controller viable. But we really need to get away from this concept of: "There's the boss!" BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! "More power!" BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! "Watch out for the 1-hit killshot!" BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! "More power!" BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! "When's the next DLC coming out!" BLAM! BLAM! BLAM!