What about BUFF Elite content?

Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by Xibo, Dec 6, 2018.

  1. Proxystar #Perception

    Of those groups though no one knows who/how many runs are actually being completed, it potentially shows that the culture of running first two bosses is at least out of control, but it doesn't actually signal completion rates.

    In terms of setting difficulty I don't know whether the devs care about every boss or whether they just care about the last one when setting difficulty. I mean I'm sure they care about the difficulty of all bosses, I just mean in terms of scaling going up as the raid progresses it seems the first two bosses are generally always and always have been the easier ones. This is actually what I'm talking about in terms of "completion rates". Just because we see lots of runs forming doesn't mean those runs are completing and if the runs aren't completing the devs may very well consider the content to be "sufficiently difficult" the fact that so many people are just abandoning runs after second boss is probably creating a bit of an illusion because many people aren't even bothering to try last boss.

    It's one thing to try last boss and fail, it's another entirely to wave goodbye at the second boss without even making the effort.

    This is exactly what am saying "the line" does need to meet somewhere in the middle, I just don't know what that middle really is, I just know it's certainly not 5% and it's probably certainly not 25% either if that makes sense. It's a somewhat subjective task because everyone likely has a different view in terms of who they subjectively think should or shouldn't be in elite content by setting its difficulty.

    My position is outlined by the fact those stats and CR sell and sell immensely, look at how time capsules sell all because there's feats attached. Also I think you're underestimating the desire to have the appealing looking gear style in a game that is also largely cosmetic. That is a big driving factor behind pushing people to pay to get the shiny, if you lock too many people out, those players just start to get disenchanted and take off to another game, probably unjustifiably, but video game players have become very fickle and appearance driven and they'll take their time and money where they get the most instant gratification.

    In terms of the gear thing, I mean again this comes down to a backwards progression model.

    I'm not sure I said it was a bad idea ;)

    We don't know population numbers though, nor do we know how many people are completing elite, we only know as evidenced in LFG that many are attemping to try, unless you're in every single one of those runs you can't possibly know. That's somewhat my point, how many of those people are "struggling to complete elite", if the majority of those people are struggling to complete it then is that not already the "majority struggling"? Or is it only acceptable if people struggle to complete all bosses?

    Perhaps the solution is to hide a certain type of renown behind certain bosses? meaning you have to complete an elite raid to actually finish off the elite set of gear rather than just farm out the first two bosses which seems to be a serious source of resentment amongst the elite players. Personally I'm not sure why others care if people are wasting the replays and spending more money to get the renown, but there ya have it.

    I'm not sure I agree that the feedback of the elite players is being ignored rather than possibly just not agreed with. I'm also not convinced the feedback from the casuals are being listened to either. Last DLC (Titans) the raids actually got a large extent of buffs which would indicate that the elite players are actually being listened too, I haven't seen any elite raid nerfs or buffs this time which indicates the devs aren't weighing one side over the other.

    They'e perhaps looking at the game data itself and drawing their own conclusions.

    not sure there's much here in this last part that needs further discussion :)
  2. Wet fluffy Well-Known Player

    That all makes sense to me and I agree, it makes the power enjoyable and fluid. However, another tank powerset could make an argument that they also need shorter cooldowns on immunities or get control resistant buffs so they can perform whatever task, whether it is popping a shield in time for a big incoming hit or allowing themselves to move out of an AoE. That’s just my opinion though.
  3. Zneeak Devoted Player

    And that's where judging upon completion rates fails. People don't actually have to complete the raid to get their hands on renown and then later the actual Elite-gear rewards, a point i've been stressing throughout this discussion. They give us the majority of the bossfights almost as easy as the normal version and then people spam that to get Elite-gear rather than normal vendor-gear, because why not when it's almost as easy as farming normal but the gear is better? Elite content loses its point because of this.

    Now you are onto something that I actually mentioned earlier, but possibly not clearly enough. This is exactly what I am talking about as one of the solutions along with also upping the difficulty and especially difficulty that consists of mechanics, objectives and elements that are different from the normal versions. The whole point of Elite rewards is beating Elite content to get it, which means giving time to a grind that's supposed to be harder and more unforgiving than grinding the normal content for marks and regular gear. That grind is getting moot when the challenge of actually beating it can be bypassed by beating easy bosses only, all the way up to full renown and Elite-gear.

    Having you actually completing said Elite-instance(s) a set number of times for the full renown/access to the full set of Elite-gear would actually push people to better themselves to the point where they can actually beat it. No shortcuts that deminish the entire point of Elite content and Elite progression. Players who can beat the instances will get the full rewards and those who cannot or will not, will not be able to. It's up to the players themselves to actually better themselves and/or take on the challenge of beating it, or settling for a little less if they can't or don't want put the effort in that others do in beating it.
    • Like x 2
  4. Proxystar #Perception

    I don't disagree with this fundamentally, with the caveat of course that difficulty still needs to be somewhat delicately balanced.

    edit; also I don't think it essentially has anything to do with a 'judgement of completion rates failing', in terms of determining difficulty, it's just a failing in one element of the progression model not properly encouraging completion and progression towards an overall end goal :)
  5. Zneeak Devoted Player

    Agreed, but it should be balanced around its intended audience, enough to the point where Elite Content can stand out as its own category rather than being a "Normal Content 2.0" ran by a majority of players already catered to through the rest of the 2 categories which already covers the vast majority of content within an Episode.
    • Like x 1
  6. Proxystar #Perception

    Of course and again I've never essentially disagreed with this, all I've disagreed with is "how big you make the audience" and challenged people as to how you "define the scale or size of that audience".

    if by "Normal Content 2.0" you are meaning , more enhanced mechanics then yes, I agree with that as well.
  7. Zneeak Devoted Player

    Although the mechanics are almost always basically the same, or to rephrase it, "too similar", with very little added to it as compared to the normal version, which is one important thing I want to see the devs work more toward when developing Elite content to make it feel more like an entirely different fight in need of entirely different strategies, more so than what is currently offered in the majority of the "recent" Elite raids.

    As for the "how big you make the audience"-argument. To be very, very blunt (because we've already typed out several novels to one another) I'll say that when the casual, average majority of players are struggling to progress through Elite content and getting Elite gear, they're onto something lol.
    • Like x 1
  8. AberrantAngel Committed Player

    I would like to see the devs not drop elite content for about the first month of a new dlc. After that time I would like to see them drop the elite content that is more mechanic heavy and difficult. This would give the time for people to run and figure mechanics and also the devs a little more time to tweak what works and does not work behind the scenes.
    Elite content should not be able to be finished day 1 with the last dlcs gear.
    Also on a side note good or bad having something so easy as a giant hulk, starfish or robot to defeat and replay holds back from players spending the time to learn raid mechanics. Why replay a 20 minute raid when I can reset a bounty 4 times in that time?
    But I also understand that this is a business and this quick replay that gives 2 less marks probably nets more replay sales this way.
    • Like x 3
  9. EconoKnight XIII Legion

    “Better yourself”

    Let’s be clear what that means. Does it mean leveling artifacts? Well, those are now just Pay2Win now, so can’t mean that.

    SP? Some of those so called feats require no skill at all! And buying feats with time caps? Can’t count those either - we need to adjust those out with difficulty too.

    The Elite being asked for is that your main ability to defeat it only comes through training and practice. This is actually clamped content. Or since words matter, maybe we could call it “champed” content.
    • Like x 2
  10. codyxrhstou Well-Known Player


    Rage's immunity gets trickier than that,there are a bunch of people noticing that it doesnt work properly.
    By that I mean even if you use it, there's still a chance to get stunned half a second later,which is why a lot of rage tanks are running breakout trinket aswell.

    I experience this myself frequently (e.g. Throne Elite Sea Beast bossfight,when sea beast does the pulling/eating mechanic in which you have to break out I usually rotate my group immunity but there were still times everyone would get pulled, including myself, a second after I used it.).

    People have been also complaining about this on the forums but no response from the devs.

    Now talking about powers,this whole "oh you tanked this,but youre rage its ezpz".Its like using ice tanks to complete r20 sm and people saying ice is op instead of giving credit to the tank.It comes to the person not the power,especially with rage,when ice used to be even more solid it was easier for everyone to get comfortable with it because its a simple power.

    Rage on the other hand has deffinetly more mechanics tank wise.I also dont believe you need rage tanks to 4 man that raid,war magus & murk can be tanked with any power easily.There are people who tanked adds as fire aswell.

    Now youre gonna say that its easier to tank with rage overall.No,its easier to tank with a power that doesnt require multi-tasking only so that you keep your rotation going.Ice is like that.Of course you'll be able to achieve more with rage if you go full tryhard,but there isnt something that hard that would make rage the only playable power for elite content.


    What troubles me the most with fire is that a few people know its true potential.People saying its unplayable should equip scrap of the soul cloak,eye of gemini and keep spamming that pheromone bloom for those 80k+ heals.
  11. Shark Dental Devoted Player


    I totally agree with this. If it were this way, I think there would be far fewer groups forming for elite, for the same reason that people with max CR start to run event content once they're maxed out on renown.

    Very few people actually seek the challenge of elite. Most merely do it because the game's design pushes them to. That's why they stack as much cheese as possible and only run a few bosses before resetting.

    The funny thing is, if you make normal reward just as much currency as elite, give the same or better rewards as elite, then even the people here looking for "a challenge" start to cry. Because they're also not about the challenge. They just want to feel superior, and enjoy superior rewards, because of being "better" players.
    • Like x 2
  12. Shark Dental Devoted Player

    So max out 2 artifacts and use an iconic that isn't part of the powerset to be able to compete with other tank powers? Sweet, sounds like fire is totally fine then. :rolleyes:
    • Like x 1
  13. codyxrhstou Well-Known Player


    I dont get your point.Is it weird using 2 different artifacts than the standard tank artifact build?I didnt say they should max them out.If youre saying that its a disadvantage for them to dump their old artifacts, that they spend money and xp on, on eye of gemini and scrap that seems to me they just made a bad desicion for their tank build at the start.

    Most of the tank powers are using HL shield and amazonium deflection right now(both iconic powers).I dont get how thats also weird to you.

    As of the new elite content,tank powers can compete with eachother if each tank can use their power properly.
  14. Darth Piper Loyal Player

    That's what I don't get... they want variety, yet their recent actions are steering us towards requiring very specific things to make life easier. I'm not expecting things to be a cake walk... I'm expecting to have a legitimate chance at accomplishing the tasks with my chosen power. Sure, it may be a little more difficult for specific powers to accomplish certain tasks... and that's legitimate. Devs outright favoring specific powers or play styles is not.
  15. Zneeak Devoted Player

    Because giving the same rewards for a greater grind makes so much sense? :rolleyes: Not sure if you knew, but tons of other games have done/still do this. You know, to encourage the additional grind and effort being put in as compared to the regular mode/content.

    Some of the biggest and most successful MMO's use this very method in their Content and Progression. I see no real reason not to treat things the same in terms of Content, Progression and Rewards in DCUO.

    Would be nice to see more forumers visit this topic with a point in the argument rather than the usual, tired out fingerpointing toward the "gosh darn elitist"-stereotype.
    • Like x 2
  16. codyxrhstou Well-Known Player


    This is noticable in every role.There will always be that one power thats better than others.I dont think balance can be achieved in this game because of the different playstyle and power mechanics.
  17. Shark Dental Devoted Player

    So what would your optimal fire tank LO look like? Which powers? How many of those are iconic, and how many from the actual powerset?

    Now what about rage? Are you telling me rage tanks are running HL shield and amazonian deflection?

    Ice too?
  18. Shark Dental Devoted Player

    Because it proves that content difficulty is not the only thing being discussed here.

    The idea of superiority is also clearly implied.

    Also, what greater grind? Isn't grind related to the total amount of runs and currency rewards required to purchase gear?
  19. Darth Piper Loyal Player

    Or to put it another way, they're using artifacts to fix fundamental flaws in the power's mechanics... exactly the fear some of us have been having all along. Rather than go back and adjust a few things regarding how a power works, they create an artifact. That's fine for helping people who already have these artifacts at viable levels... but new players won't be able to go and do that without shelling out a whole lot of cash to quick-level an artifact. They also have a habit of giving us double XP weekends the weekend before they drop new artifacts. How does that help us experiment? We just leveled up an artifact to an acceptable level (120+), a few days after the double XP weekend ends, we get to lose half of that experience when we sacrifice an artifact just to test out a new one, and then half again to switch back because we didn't like it? Having a double XP weekend after an artifact drop can give us the ability to transfer full experience, try it out, and if we don't like it, switch it back at no cost other than all of the catalysts and maybe some seals of preservation or completion.

    In theory, any character without artifacts should be able to complete any mission. When you get to a point where you are required to have very specific artifacts at high levels just to accomplish certain tasks you have fundamental problems with the way the game works.
    • Like x 2
  20. Darth Piper Loyal Player

    I don't expect every power and every role to be able to accomplish the same tasks with the same level of difficulty. Some things SHOULD be slightly more difficult for one power vs another or one play style vs another. That's what makes getting a diverse group together work so well... each power and play style will have some advantages and disadvantages and you work together as a team to accomplish the goals. But when you knee-cap certain powers or play styles and give them huge disadvantages out of the gate while making others your "favored children" you don't create that diversity of play.
    • Like x 1