We need to know balancing criteria for PvP

Discussion in 'Battle of the Legends (PvP)' started by Sage-Rapha, Dec 1, 2015.

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  1. Sage-Rapha Steadfast Player

    Why is there absolutely no criteria or communication of such things?

    Legends: why no communication of criteria for a balanced legends character?
    We have an absolute mess right now in legends.
    You say that there's supposed to be just High Survivability and High Damage classes in Legends, but there's a problem:

    There's legends with no class, and Legends with both class traits.
    What's up with that guys?
    And with mid range weapons update, there's gonna be some huge discrepancies made even the more prominent.

    Arenas:
    You want fast kills but strategic play but you destroyed a healer power's potential and handicapped multiple tanks. Also controllers were batteries once again..

    How does that add up?
    There needs to a serious discussion of role importance, permanent solutions to power creep in Arenas, and what is considered balanced in 1v1, 2v2, 4v4, and 8v8 arena meta.

    As it stands right now in 8v8 6 dps 1 troll and 1 healer (often Electric and Sorcery) rule the balance.

    5v5 is 3 dps 1 troll 1 healer and Im being generous with roles right now.

    4v4 is dps ruled

    2v2 is dps ruled

    1v1 is dps ruled

    That's sad. You can do much much better.



    What I see is another crisis. There was a disconnect in how we tested with PvE damage. The mid range thing is being solved, but we need a clear, concise, word on what you developers see as balanced.
    It's on you.

    Speak on this so we can help get this back on track... together
    • Like x 8
  2. Telos Usr Dedicated Player

    They explained a few months ago.

    There wont be any communication about PVP changes until they're all up and ready to go on test. For the simple reason that every time they did, there were ridiculously extreme reactions from ppl about changes that were coming. Changes that these ppl didnt even try yet. Ppl that didnt realise the changes were Phase 1 of a Multi-Phase plan of changes.

    I understand pvp needs work and id love to know myself, but looking back at some comments that can only be described as "Vicious", I dont blame the devs at all. WIP Threads on PVP were a choice, NOT an obligation, and it was abused.
  3. Clutchmeister Loyal Player


    So essentially the reasoning is "due to the overwhelmingly negative feedback based on a change that was put on test with 0 prior discussion, we're only going to put up changes with 0 prior discussion from now on".

    Flawless.
    • Like x 10
  4. Telos Usr Dedicated Player



    Flawless reasoning if it had been flawless reading, but it wasn't.

    I'll simplify it: the initial plan was to release small changes that would apparently, overall, over time, change PVP for the better. This would include WIP Threads to get early feedback and ideas. This ended up being a disaster as after the first small change went through, ppl acted like that was it. This was their PVP fix. And there'd be no other. I was there for the threads, ppl went absolutely ape-sh*t crazy over nothing, over a peek through a keyhole.

    Now its even more simple. You're thinking of this as them throwing a hissy-fit over getting negative feedback. Its actually them taking back a new avenue of communication that they were under no obligation to start in the first place because it was abused. And it WAS abused. Now its simplified to the point that if ppl arent willing to be patient and see ALL the changes coming out in time whilst having the opportunity to interact and actually Constructively influence the changes, then they'll hold everything back till its all ready. Lets not forget that DCUO did not start off with WIP Threads.

    Sry guys, im rooting for a PVP-comeback as much as anyone, I thoroughly enjoy that aspect of the game, but im also a realist. Nobody here is an employee/CEO/Shareholder of Daybreak, so they do not owe you, nor I, any information until THEY are ready to release it. What you's are asking for was already ruined, they don't OWE anything and I certainly cant blame them after seeing the ridiculous behaviour of some of those posters.

    Negative feedback is one thing, they're adults. What went on was something else.
    • Like x 1
  5. Absolix Loyal Player

    Where the heck did you get this idea? They made a huge change and just threw on test with no WIP thread
    • Like x 3
  6. Sage-Rapha Steadfast Player

    The immunity change that went on first, was absolutely huge and definitely not the right step to take at all.
    However, what you brought up is not even slightly pertinent to what I posted in the first place, so please remain on topic.
    Btw, the same crap went on with GU50 after the huge upset. Your point?

    Im talking about balancing Legends characters, Arenas, and to bridge the disconnects thereof.
    And dont be so sure of yourself. You've no idea what goes on behind the scenes Telo.

    :)
    • Like x 1
  7. TRELL1 Well-Known Player

    Why does every PvP discussion thread devolve into this? At some point both sides (devs and PvPers) need to get over what happened in the past and move forward with what will help.

    One thing I was confused on in the original post Supreme, how would midrange weapon balancing expose discrepancies even more? If all weapons were ideally balanced that would solve a pretty big issue.
    • Like x 2
  8. Absolix Loyal Player

    PvE balance typically has a few flaws when translating those changes to PvP.

    With the last set of changes in Gu47 some weapons were balanced around being ranged and some were balanced around being melee. None were balanced around both. This is made more difficult if they don't include WM combos again since very few weapons have any ranged combos and many of the few there are, are single input, Grenade Launcher, Arrow Storm, etc.

    PvE typically involves one longer combo being used over and over again As evidenced by weapons now, shorter combos just rarely have any use over the insane power of longer ones. Why chip away at someone's health when you can one shot them?

    Legends also has altered weapons, and the last attempt to balance those with the other weapons gave us a weapon strong enough to wipe the floor with the former best weapon that has a fast AoE blockbreaker clippable for full damage.

    Since the last sweep of weapon changes meant to balance them for PvE made PvP balance it's worst yet, most people aren't entirely optimistic about the outcome of the next set of weapon changes.
    • Like x 2
  9. Sage-Rapha Steadfast Player

    Shiny Mackerel crunched the numbers, and I'll dig them up soon.

    But, right now, this includes Altered weapons such as Modified Brawling and Feral Martial Arts.

    Cheetah and Catwoman received a 140% weapon buff in the last weapon pass.

    Then you have weapons that are just not PvP friendly, such as Two Handed and Dual Pistols.
    Mega Smash is too risky, Doom Spin is too vulnerable, and Home Run is too slow.
    Dual Pistols is vulnerable in every situation.

    Then ranged weapons like Handblasters, which have excellent melee damage, that AoE Blockbreak that's clippable for full damage will be that much better.
    That BB is Power Discharge.

    Shield already gives Wonder Woman and Shield using PvP'ers a huge advantage due to being hard to read and fluid. Has a faster lunge than all weapons, and is very useful for lunge kiting. (Healer tactic exposed)

    One Handed has always been good in PvP and can do great counter damage. Flip Slash is a danger in melee range.

    Bow is underrated but melee moves like Kip Up Launcher, Finishing Volley, Bow Slam can be dangerous and they hit fairly hard but it still pales to the other weapons.

    Martial Arts is another top dog weapon. Smokebomb and spinning punch.. then the annoying Shuriken Storm.

    Dual Wield has too many taps to really be effective.

    Brawling is slow but it's about to get much better and worth the speed, however, it's pure melee.
    There's a lot of legends characters with brawling so those with high survivability will probably be seeing the light of day but this means Shazam will be even more powerful.

    Staff.. Robin could be seeing a buff.

    Rifle: an absolute monster in the right hands and that means John Stewart and Two Face (another already powerful character) will be seeing a buff.
  10. iiCoNx Active Player

    They shown they can change power damage in open world pvp at that to not affect pve key example is mental's MT when it 1st got buffed
    • Like x 1
  11. iiCoNx Active Player

    Wont speak to much on legends pvp cause its not as much a problem as arena's but i'd vote to back to rock paper scissors on arena pvp just adjust WM and AM damage,sorry but i think 1v1 had its biggest part in killing pvp
  12. iiCoNx Active Player

    I'd keep open world,duels and 1v1 arenas only pretty much the same adjust WM and AM accordingly for stats and toughness but 2v2 and up arenas should go back to rock paper scissors with full role capability but not full dps damage unless specced or a troll you could be close like it use 2 be
  13. TRELL1 Well-Known Player

    Ok I can see from Absolix and Supreme's replies where issues would arise. I wonder if there's a possibility of adding in ranged/melee combos for this weapons lacking in each. If that doesn't occur what's the next best option?
  14. iiCoNx Active Player

    Rock paper scissors 2v2 was the best countering a whatever you went against group with what you could do fun times
  15. iiCoNx Active Player

    Shouldnt be a balance for pvp everything should have a counter unless for 1v1 purpose balance came along with 1v1
  16. Soul Dedicated Player

    I'm all for the removal of Immunity, eventually, but yanking it out of a system that is so flawed in every single way, and is only maybe standing because of it.. That was not a "Small change", it was a big bad change at the worse possible timing.

    You're absolutely right, in comparison to how PvPers were completely ignored in the past, as we got Immunity to begin with, and how we were ignored when it was applied... I'de say the Developers are a lot more attentive now.

    I don't see why this deserves to be put in a positive light though, why couldn't there have been a communication line to begin with? and why is it so dis-functioning now?

    Sure, you can blame the community, in many cases you'd be right.. however, it still seems unfair to me that PvP gets the back burner, or no burner at all in such a crucial stage, PvP really is dead.. how can there be "more pressing matters"?

    I disagree, I'm not sure if "OWE" is the right word, but some of us are paying customers, that does not mean we're entitled to whatever we want, but at the very least we deserve some respect - Communication.

    Ignoring your customers as they pay for months.. I don't see how that's acceptable in any way or form.

    On a final note, I do agree some posters behave in a ridiculous manner, not just that but current posters don't even realize how much more attention they get nowadays than what we got 3-4 years ago.. It's just sad that that's the way it is, why does the community, the paying customers, need to fight for a communication line?
    • Like x 3
  17. Yallander Loyal Player

    I'm quoting you Soul because I totally agree with what you shared this is so true. In every job myself, friends, family, etc have/had if a paying customer calls and wants to talk to a manager/owner about a legitimate concern you make it happen. You don't go on and on about "how" the paying customer should present themselves just to be heard--you listen, take the feedback and thank them for their time. Some players have put years worth of time into learning aspects of this game and their feedback is based on that invested time. Not "their opinion," but their experience. This experience has in many cases even gone beyond what the devs understood about the game and following embarrassment ended in a change (IE Tunso and his Robin comment.)

    How patient should a paying customer be? One month, 6 months, 2 years? How much feedback should we give? Videos, long drawn out posts and conversations, distinct examples and heck even experienced advice have all been provided and much of it with no change or even a thank you.

    But we are paying customers, so in essence they do owe us to provide an experience worth the money we pay. I agree some players were completely uncivil and there is definitely a line, however silence will push a calm civil person over that line faster than most anything someone can say.

    I voted with my wallet a while ago, but a small part of me wants this game to make a comeback. Being a realist I know it isn't going to happen because of the devs (either lack of resources, time, money, etc--whatever it is) not because of the players.
    • Like x 2
  18. Drathmor Unwavering Player

    they said they arent touching PVP as we dont want over time changes
    EVEN THO NO ONE SAID THAT DEVS!!!!

    I have given up on PVP curently and its my favorite part of the game outside of the players i hang with as in the 1v1's and 2v2s they are pointless if your not a op power that stuns and destroys you lose simple as that rage, light, rule that world and the 4v4s are much the same just more of them..

    its sad really even with the powers being out of ballanced they could give us more health and more toughness and at least make it a little bit of a fight to give players at least the idea of being able to fight it out a little but sadly no its.

    walk out get stunned then destroyed in two to three hits

    rince and repeat

    how is that fun i ask anyone
  19. Sage-Rapha Steadfast Player

    There's a reason why I posted this thread and everyone is not grasping why.

    So, the reason why was in part to open the floor to get a nice discussion going with the Mepps or whoever dared to enter this thread.

    The other reason was to see who would constructively post, rather than bring up the past... and I gotta say, this thread is already ruined.
    You already proved that there is no discussion to be had yet and it wasn't even everyone. 1 person single handedly derailed an entire thread with nonsense from the past.

    Lock this up Mepps
    • Like x 1
  20. Sage-Rapha Steadfast Player

    I understand and it needs to be looked at soon.
    Man 2's were so fun before. 4's too.

    Pm me if you want buddy. :)
    • Like x 1
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