We need alternative options to stats clamping...

Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by STsource, Jan 22, 2022.

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  1. Tiffany6223 Dedicated Player

    The portion in green that I highlighted by your own words proves what I was saying, the clamp primarily benefits low CR new or returning players and implements a punishing tax on end game high CR players.

    In FF14, I am Level 90 with full CR555 gear with malaria. I am still very strong in the lower leveling instances or even in the Alliance runs. I would contend that I am considerably stronger in that content than being a measly +15 CR here in DCUO. Apples vs Organges.

    I should give away the whole plot of Endwalker to you for being so mean to me today!
  2. Requake Dedicated Player

    I hope you used materias on your gear and not Malaria :D

    But especially the apples and oranges I feel are true, the games play completely different. FF14 literally doesn't care about AOE, while ST is the one and only deciding factor.
  3. BumblingB 15000 Post Club

    I really am trying to stay out of this thread, but I have to respond to this.

    EEG that is NOT Elite, does not give a punishing tax on a player. Matter of fact, because of all the buffs they provide for EEG normal that aren't boosted because of a boosted up player is in the group, is, to be frank, similar to the god awful CR Differential we had. (Thank god it's not, because I'd probably drop the game if that returned.) My experience has shown to me that the content is still... face roll level of difficulty. That the only ones that are a problem are ones that were either heavy mechanic or were made too difficult at level. Which, could be hard to complete if even it was unclamped.

    What IS a problem is EEG Elite. You get no buffs, like regular has. The only bonus you get is full piercing, that come to find out, is a joke amount of stats. Since the primary contributor to your stats is gear, you are only getting bonuses based on just the clamped stats. So that doesn't help a player at all.

    In the end of the day, I really wish you would actually give normal EEG clamp an actual try. I don't like the clamp, but my experience has proved this has not hindered my experience to play. Besides, there are so many things to do in current content, you may still find yourself only playing a small portion in the clamp anyways.
    • Like x 6
  4. Melusine Midnight Rainbow Phoenix

    Um, yeah, I don't think you read what I said. I specifically am not addressing externally available population numbers. I am asking and wondering about internal metrics, such as completions vs. disbands, and popularity pre-clamp vs. post clamp.

    None of what either of you responded with addressed my post in any way. As I pointed out, the number of concurrent changes makes external data hard to parse in terms of being specific to clamp vs. un-clamped.

    Mepps has stated multiple times that the memberships are up, and I don't dispute that one bit. I'm not even making claims one way or another, I am literally just posing the question. However, if someone tells me that the numbers are good because people just love the new on-duty UI, I'm going to question that and wonder what data is available internally. Again, not deny, just pose the question.

    I understand this is a very heated discussion, but me saying the words 'data and popularity' shouldn't trigger an off-subject response because you think I might be opposed to you. If you're going to bother to quote me, read what I said and respond to my actual words, please and thank you. I'm sure that sounded angry, but I just want to keep the discussion on track and constructive.

    Meanwhile, I did do a 45 minute video a few months ago charting the exact population from numerous sources and documenting my methodology. I know exactly how many people play DCUO, and that is specifically not what I am wondering. Incidentally basic population numbers are meaningless with regard to end-game versus not end-game players, and thus the stat clamping issue. I know exactly how many end-gamers there were until the census went down, how many alts they play and all of that. Again, specifically not the issue.

    Also ALSO - can people please figure out how to answer poor Tiffany without telling her how she should feel? Oh if you like this you should like that! Y'all that is a whole mess. Please check yourselves on other people's rights to their own feelings. Facts have never changed whether or not someone "likes" a thing, that's not how human decision making works. (Source; The Righteous Mind, The Moral Animal, Sex at Dawn, Non-Zero, The People's Chronology, the entire psych section of your local university library, and you know, all books to ever discuss it.)

    Also, Also, Also, Yass and Solowing -- y'all know there is an ignore button, ya? Like, at this point, do either of you think that calling out the other is going to sway the audience somehow? Or lead to anything constructive? I'm pretty sure you both feel some kind of obligation to the community to call out the other, but I think at this point we've all decided where we stand.

    And that's the BIG THING -- everyone -- Every. One. -- knows how they feel about the current situation. So as soon as we start getting stuck on it, instead of posing new questions or new suggestions, we stop making progress.
    • Like x 4
  5. Drathmor Unwavering Player

    There are post after post on here stating that they wont touch any of it

    and that second point
    I can only speak for my self but
    Two of my leaguemates and I randomly que omni bus raids daily and we are able to get through every last bit of the content nonmatter how awful the rest of the group is
    or have so far

    but saying that most group still ignore the mechanics and complete them further pushes the idea that there not to hard and that stat clamping isn't a detriment to completion
  6. catplaysxoxo Dedicated Player

    I’ll be back on April 1st to make my own thread like this. :)
    • Like x 2
  7. Melusine Midnight Rainbow Phoenix

    • Like x 2
  8. DeitySupreme Devoted Player

    No one is attacking you. I answered your question. Not my fault you don’t like or accept the answer.

    It is 15 cr because when content goes to endgame the content is nerfed. The day wonderverse was changed to early endgame it was easier than the day before. Yes the cr difference is lower but the overall difficulty is lower when it was compared with 1 day difference.
    • Like x 2
  9. Tiffany6223 Dedicated Player

    This is still not an answer at all. Let me instead rephrase my question this way, Why Does It Have to be +15 CR? Why can’t it be a higher number like the difference between Ep.39 and Ep. 41. This all I am asking, why +15 and not higher?

    Why is higher such a threat? How is Wonderverse easier now than when it was first released? All they did was stat clamp High CR end game players down to +15 CR above the NPCs. I have not read any official material from Daybreak to indicate to me that when a DLC drops out of end game they not only stat clamp all high end players but also nerf it. That makes absolutely no sense to me for them to do.
    • Like x 2
  10. Reinheld Devil's Advocate

    I said if you have 5 or 6 capable people....yes with the right 2 or 3, maybe then even (I'd like to see you do Prison break with 3...but sure). Sometimes it takes more than a few staffing changes to get there, sometimes you never get there or bail before it works out. Many times I don't have the time to find out. The point was that the 2 or 3 ding dongs (or 5 in your example) who are along for the ride (or locked outside the door) learn or experience no more than they would have 6 months ago with an OP beast doing the same thing solo with 7 spectators. Yes, they get some pew-pew time....but are they becoming 'better' because of that? Of course in rooms with muti button mechanics, SOMEONE might accidentally learn something, but as we saw with ToTD's Ares nerf, 'learning how to play' is not high on the Dev's list 100% of the time either.

    YES....there have been perfectly fine runs. I've even been in a few, sounds like you have too....congrats on that. I even ran Dox the other day in Omni and only had to tell 3 people we need to close the tunnels a few times....and within 10 or 11 deaths, they figured out to roll away from the Sentry...Big win I suppose (woo hoo I had 9 pickups in the first 2 tunnels alone!). 30 min later I got my 15 marks and omni box and someone got the feat to NOT let the Tyrant recharge with the energy because I killed it for them. You're welcome noobs. The only 100% truths are A) it's slower....B) there are more fails than before. Everything else is people's own experiences and subjective. Not all are bad....not all are good either.

    And please....find where I found it hard for ME? It is NOT hard...except that many people don't know what to do or don't do it even if they do. That makes the runs time consuming at a minimum, a disband maybe even. More time consuming than we need in a game that is 100% grind already. THAT is the reason I avoid it....not cause it's too 'hard'. The only place it being 'too hard' would matter is solos and I run 3 solos on about 25 toons every week....no issues there cause the only dope in that run....is me.
    • Like x 4
  11. 9001BPM Steadfast Player

    World bosses intended for 8 players get downgraded to 4 player enemies. That’s the only nerf I’m aware of.
    • Like x 1
  12. DeitySupreme Devoted Player

    The completion cD disband can not be tracked because the game doesn’t keep track (as far as I know). There are checks for if something was beat with the headline but after that there isn’t any indication of how successful groups are in any content. All that can be used is personal experience and raw stats. Right now we only have 1 dlcs worth of data to go over. That being wonderverse because it was the only dlc that was transferred over while clamp was active. It being the first means we have to use it as a baseline. While overall mechanic difficulty is objective, base stats are not. For example if an attack hit you and took away 20% of you health the day before it was transferred to EEG and the day after that same attack hit the same person with same stats for 15% of their health than yes it became easier from a statistical standpoint. Even if your overall cr when down the baselines went in favor of the players running said content.

    Whether people love or hate the clamp is irrelevant to me. It can be something I personally don’t like but it it’s good for the overall health of the game than it doesn’t matter how I feel. And as harsh as it sound some people do need to accept that. For example, I don’t run the higher difficulty levels of elite content because I run elite with my league and friends. They aren’t the best players in the game but they are who I like running with. But even thou I don’t run it doesn’t mean I have any right to ask for it to be nerfed so that my friends can run it. I used to go back and forth with zNot a lot. He wanted the difficulty of rite to be harder and I wanted it be to at a difficulty where more players could do it because it would benefit more players. They then added the difficulty levels to elite content and now that can be adjust for more players. Which is helpful for the game.

    The stats clamp, while some may not like it is important for the overall health of the game. No amount of whining will change that. The game wasn’t designed to have players have so much stats to the point they can one shot adds and nuke bosses. It was creating bugs which diverted resources to fixing them. The overall skill level of players has been decreasing too because players were getting carried through the leveling content to the point that there were players at end game who had no idea how to play. And yes the cr skips also had a hand in that but players being carried to end game also didn’t help. So from a development standpoint stats clamp is needed for the long term health of the game. Regardless of it being popular or not.

    And no, I don’t think your response sounded angry in any way.

    As for tiff. She can feel how she wants. Im not trying to change how she feels. She doesn’t like it and that’s fine. She said hi to me in game the other day and I said hi back. I have absolutely no issues with anyone regardless of how they feel about me. I did answer the question of why 15cr isn’t a bad slot.
    • Like x 1
  13. Drathmor Unwavering Player

    • Like x 1
  14. DeitySupreme Devoted Player

    The 15cr is just a number. It could have been 1 or 30 and it would still be just a number. The number that matters is how much stats pierce through. It could be 1 cr and they could let more stats pierce through to be the difficulty that 15 is now. They could do 30 cr and let less stats pierce through. The numbers that matter is how much stats are let pass through the cap into each content. Only a dev can answer why 15. But enough stats are let to be passed through to make it o that you will always have more stats than someone who is lower than you. Whether you feel powerful is also objective because someone like me who (without trying to brag) is a good player can make use of the stats that pierce through. But someone that’s not as good would have trouble.

    The point is that they can’t let to much stats piercer through because it would again lead to content being trivialized and bugs happening because bosses get burned to fast.

    As for how is it easier. It’s easier because the content has been nerfed when it was changed to early end game. The bosses have less health and deal less damage compared to how it was when it was in end game. The open word bosses can even be done with a minimal group and as pointed out before even soloed.

    So the day it went from end game to early end game I ran it to see how it felt and it was clearly easier from a statistical standpoint compared to the day before.
    • Like x 1
  15. Melusine Midnight Rainbow Phoenix

    This is exactly the kind of thing we should be focused on! Bravo!

    What is the exact mission statement these days for the clamp? Is it working? How many more instances disband now, than before? Is any instance more popular now that it used to be, when removing random queues from the equation? Which instances are completed the least? Queued the least? Take more or less time than similarly tiered instances?

    From what I can tell you can easily learn FoS3 and Happiness Home, but I'm not sure people are having an integrated learning experience throughout clamped content. I feel like the answer is "nope".

    Some of the suggestions I put forth about banners and focused content events could possibly mitigate this or lead to more on the job learning. What else can we come up with to make this idea both more fun and more useful in achieving the mission of player learning and community integration?
    • Like x 1
  16. Catastroflare Well-Known Player

    Just wanted to share some things...

    1) Mepps has not once in any recent thread on the topic of an optional stat clamp chimed in to say that this will never happen. This tells me, like everything, they are always evaluating things and weighing what's viable and what may not be. Nothing in this game is ever set in stone.

    2) I have spent the past 2 weeks or so leveling three alts (from level 1 to CR 170ish) to take advantage of the anniversary event. Having run them through omnibus at pretty much every tier for the weekly omnibus rewards has been a nightmare more often than not. I learned that there are certain alerts and raids that I will never do because of the sheer frustration and ineptitude of the people running the content with me. This is my experience and does not represent everyone else's but I'm guessing many others would agree with it.

    3) If you really want to know how the players feel about the stat clamp, mention it in LFG. Each time I have, since the majority of players do not post here on the forums, will tell you how they really feel. Though I won't say everyone hates the stat clamp, most do prefer that it be optional from the responses I've seen. I don't take this to represent the whole player base but if there was a poll to gauge if the stat clamp is worth it, I'd love to see the results.

    4) And finally, like I've asked so many times before, what will it hurt to have an optional stat clamp for older content? Remove marks and loot -so what's the problem?
    • Like x 3
  17. Drathmor Unwavering Player

  18. Melusine Midnight Rainbow Phoenix

    Ok hang on. Explain this to me like I'm 5 years old, and dim-witted.

    How is an unpopular feature, any unpopular feature, good? Like, yes I agree that if resources were being tremendously diverted by these bugs, that needs a solution. If that solution isn't popular can it really be considered good for the health of the game? I mean people have to like the game, right?

    I'm not claiming that clamp is, in fact, an unpopular feature. However if internal data shows that it is, shouldn't we seek a better solution?

    Sorry that's a lot of questions at once, but I guess it boils down to whether adequate is enough, or if we should go for "best" instead of just good. I'm not so naïve as to think we can please everyone with any change, I do wonder if we could get closer, though.

    You also state that it doesn't matter to you how people feel about clamp, but saying you also care about the health of the game seems incongruous. See what I mean? You're a logical guy, so help me unravel this. I feel like I must've misunderstood something.
    • Like x 5
  19. Reinheld Devil's Advocate

    The easiest of the easy like FOS3 and DD are still slower simply because the burn is slower. Longer runs with more adds, more mechanics, long hallways etc...I don't see how you can think it's not much difference. Good on you if it seems the same, but for pure lack of burn (via the clamp) it really can't be.

    Now if you want to add in LFG building time to the mix (i.e. it took 5 min to run DD, BUT took 30 min to build a group)...yes, you can definitely say it might be the same (or better for the least loved runs), although I find trying to queue up a run I'd NEED to run almost never populates with omni players unless it's one of those more loved runs....so again, subjective.

    BTW...there was another fix proposed that would have fixed that pre clamp LFG building time and axess issues....it was not taken (AQS).
    • Like x 1
  20. Drathmor Unwavering Player

    but quing for feats and then being overpowered directly means you don't disserve the feats
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